Austin and Rachel sit down with longtime friends Jonathan and Ashley Hardy. Jonathan owns leaders.church, which consults and resources pastors, and wrote the book Arrow Striker. Ashley is a certified CCM coach and on the CCM staff. They have been married just shy of 17 years and in ministry together the whole time: Jonathan hired Ashley as his administrative assistant when he was an associate pastor in Springfield, and later they helped plant a church in the Kansas City area, which is where the Holts first met them.
Asked what pressures pastors face in their marriages that most people never see, Jonathan says many pastors put pressure on themselves to be perfect, with the perfect marriage and the perfect kids, and that social media has put them even more under the microscope. Ashley names the shame around weakness and the fear that admitting it will cost influence, while some leaders end up putting their marriage and kids on the back burner for the sake of the ministry. Do pastors feel safe asking for marriage help? Generally no, Jonathan says, especially in rural churches where one honest conversation at the coffee shop can become the whole town's business.
On whether pastors need marriage support even more than other couples, Ashley points to James 3:1 and Jonathan says you can't lead people where you haven't gone. Ashley is candid about her own growth: she used to interrupt Jonathan when she got emotionally charged, and he learned to withhold to keep the peace. Learning CCM's toss framework, where only the person holding the hacky sack talks, broke that cycle. Jonathan adds that couples are always told to communicate but rarely shown how, and that their different family backgrounds shaped what communication even meant.
The final question: what would they say to a pastor couple who know their marriage needs attention but feel they can't afford the time away from ministry? Jonathan's answer is that they can't afford not to. Public falls are not overnight; they build over a long time, and a marriage built only around ministry is fragile. Rachel closes with a word of thanks to everyone serving in church ministry, from the pulpit to the photographer.
Key takeaways
- Many pastors carry self-imposed pressure to look perfect, and that pressure is exactly what keeps them from getting help.
- Small struggles that go unaddressed for months or years are what grow into big, public failures.
- You can't lead people where you haven't gone. Investing in your own marriage gives you an authority people can feel.
- "Just communicate" is not a plan. Use a framework for hard conversations, like setting a time to talk or passing an object so only one person speaks.
- A marriage built only around shared ministry is fragile. Make room to connect outside the work.
- If you are in ministry and your marriage needs attention, you can't afford not to invest in it.
Quotes from the episode
“I would tell them they can't afford not to.”Jonathan
“You can't lead people where you haven't gone.”Jonathan
“If I have trouble with someone else it's just because there's something in me that's wanting healed.”Ashley
“Your marriage is not some third thing.”
Full episode transcript
Transcribed from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are automated and may occasionally be off.
Jonathan: Pastors in general will have a pressure on themselves that they place on themselves to be perfect because they're the pastor, they're the shepherd, they're the teacher. And so there's a, a, maybe a belief they have that they have to have it all figured out if they're the ones now shepherding and teaching other people. And so consequently, whether they're intentionally not being honest, or maybe that wouldn't be exactly what they're doing but it's just, like, there's this pressure to feel like, "Yeah, yeah, my life's all perfect," and, "Yeah, my marriage is perfect. My kids are perfect." And
Rachel: Welcome to the Conscious Christian Marriage podcast, where we help Christ-centered couples elevate their marriage one episode at a time. We're your hosts, Austin and Rachel Holt. Thank you for tuning in today. We're so glad that you're here.
Austin: Yes, we are so excited to introduce some very, very, very special guests today, Jonathan and Ashley Hardy. guys, we are so thankful you're here. These are some of the best people we have ever known. And we have been excited about this episode for a long time. We've been planning this for, like, years to, to, to make this happen. And the Lord just ordained it to be today. All right? We've got a big weekend. We've got couples coming in for one of our members events, and so Jonathan and Ashley got here early, and we're just rocking this podcast. And so before they share, I, I just wanna introduce them a little bit. I wanna brag on them a little bit because they don't brag on themselves enough. These are world-class people. Okay, so first of all, we got Jonathan here. Jonathan is the owner of leaders.church, which is an amazing, resource for churches, for leadership training, all kinds of amazing things. He's also the author of Arrow Striker.
Let's go. Amazing book. if you understand this title, then you can probably only imagine how amazing this book is and how it can be for your life.
Rachel: It's inspiring.
Austin: And then we have Miss Ashley Hardy, and Ashley is also amazing. Ashley is one of our fully certified coaches. She went through a, a year-long grueling process with us to to now offer coaching to, members of CCM and other clients, which is really amazing. She's also on staff here at CCM. And so if you're ever gonna be a part of CCM or interface with CCM, you're probably gonna have the pure joy of getting to interact with Ashley. we met Jonathan and Ashley through a church that we were a part of for about 10 years. And literally, we met them, we signed up for their life group, and we met them in their home and just started a beautiful friendship. And so they were hospitable and loving and all sorts of things. Helped us transition to that church in a really amazing way. But, these aren't just amazing people. They have an amazing marriage. They have amazing children. Okay? if you got to meet their kids, you just know how quality they are.
And, they have been in church leadership for decades and decades while being married together. They have some incredible wisdom that we're gonna get into today. But enough with the super long intro. Jonathan and Ashley, welcome to the podcast. We are very thankful that you guys are here.
Jonathan: Well, thank you so much. We have been looking forward to doing this with you, and we are just, grateful to be here today. Thank you for the kind words, and, we would reciprocate our feelings towards you as well. And you guys know that, how much you've meant to us, over the years. And, so we're ready to have some fun.
Austin: Yeah, we were just praying before the episode. We're like, "Who knows what we'll do today, really?" but we do have a slight
Rachel: We have a few questions
Austin: Track. Yeah, we, we do have, we do have a, a, a little track here because it's not every day we get someone like you guys who have had a thriving marriage, a marriage that you've grown, of course but still, for the most part, a thriving marriage while being in so many years of ministry. And so, you know, there's a lot of things I think you guys could speak to, but I'm really excited about our listeners getting, like, a little glimpse into your minds and your hearts of, like, what it's like to be, to be married and to be doing high-stakes ministry work. You know? And I believe that all ministry work, no matter how big your church is, how small your church is, it's all equal for impact in the kingdom of God, 100%. You guys have been at some big, big church with some big names and big, like, high-stakes ministry stuff. And so I think that you could offer a lot of wisdom to anybody listening today, including pastors and leaders and people in ministry.
And so whereas we could talk about so many things, I think that, the, the best value, the best gold for our listeners today would just be to kinda crack into your hearts and minds about marriage and ministry and leadership and kinda where all that comes together. So really excited to talk about that. Which really, you wanna kinda tee us up for our first question?
Rachel: Yeah. So because you guys have been in marriage ministry together basically your entire relationship.
Austin: Which is how many years?
Jonathan: Well, at the time of this recording
Rachel: Marriage
Jonathan: Just shy of 17.
Austin: Yeah. Let's go.
Jonathan: I think we're like two weeks from 17 years. So
Rachel: And, and what's your anniversary date?
Jonathan: The same as yours.
Austin: Let's go. The same anniversary date. Come on, come on.
Rachel: October 2nd.
Austin: October 2nd.
Rachel: Anybody else have October 2nd, comment in the threads.
Jonathan: That's right. That's, that's a great day.
Rachel: Comment on YouTube.
Jonathan: Yeah. But different years. We were different years.
Rachel: It's a bit
Austin: 17 years
Rachel: Bit off.
Austin: So 17 years married, 17 years really in ministry together.
Jonathan: Well, yeah, 'cause we were doing ministry before we got married. And there's a little fun story there, but
Austin: Ooh. Maybe we'll get to it.
Jonathan: I don't know. We'll see.
Austin: Sounds a little scandalous. I don't know.
Jonathan: It's not scandalous. It's, it's
Rachel: It's not.
Austin: It's, it's just
Rachel: Just juicy maybe.
Austin: Yeah, it's just juicy. That's what it is. All right. So let, let, let's Man, yeah.
Rachel: All of that in mind
Austin: Let's tee 'em up for the first question. Yeah
Rachel: Tell us a little bit about your experience in ministry together, 'cause we want our listeners to hear about that, your ministry experience together as a married couple, and what roles have you guys served in together over the years.
Jonathan: Mm-hmm. Well, I'll start. So I was, an associate pastor, in Springfield, and, a single pastor just out of seminary. And, well, maybe I Could I jump into a little piece of this? It'll be fine.
Rachel: Yeah, it'll be great.
Jonathan: So, we were expanding. We were getting ready to transition from I was in the adult ministries area, so we were focusing on transitioning from Sunday school into a small group ministry. And that was during the time where the small group, life group, whatever you call it, was kinda becoming more and more popular in churches. And, so actually, that was why I was hired on, to help in that transition from Sunday school to small group ministry. And, anyway, we were getting ready for all that. Came to a point where, they were wanting to hire another administrative assistant to help me, and I was like- I know exactly who I wanna hire.
Austin: Oh, let's go.
Jonathan: And it was right here, Ashley Moran.
Austin: Woo.
Ashley: Woo.
Jonathan: So, that's it. And so, 'cause we had been friends in Bible college and seminary. We, you know, we had so such his history together. And, I was like, "Oh, well, I mean, this would be so easy. I mean, she'll be able to come in, and we know each other." It's like you get you don't have to jump all those hurdles of, like figuring each other out, and how does this working relationshipship work. And so anyway, you can fill in the details if you want. But that was the initial thing, was, just adult ministries and pastoring there. And, but then, long story short, we ended up going from a working relationship to a marriage relationship.
Austin: Let's go.
Jonathan: And there's too many details to cover there, but that's the bottom line. And, so, so we did that together, for seven years, and then the Lord led us to help church plant with some friends. And of course, that's the church that we met you guys at. you know, eventually you came. So we moved to the Kansas City area, and, we started from the ground up, a startup, you know, planting a church. And, you know, that was tough. We had a, a two-year-old at the time, and then, she was pregnant. And my family was in Springfield, so we left my family. we quit my job. We lost my insurance. You know, all this stuff. And it's like, what? You know what are we doing? But we were just stepping out in faith and- 'cause God said, "Go," And we did. And, it's a good thing we did 'cause, you know then you guys showed up, a couple years d into the journey and we met you.
And, so had that pastoral experience as well, and then while I was doing that, needed a job. And, so turns out my dad needed help 'cause he was consulting pastors acro across the country, and he had a really good year, and the Lord just divinely orchestrated that to where he could actually bring me on and provide for us financially. And I started working for him while we were church planting. And, didn't realize that actually we would continue working together. That was in 2014. And now here we are, 2026. And still going strong. And, you know, we, we both, from early on felt called to build God's church. And to be called to to just to, to minister to people. obviously we chose the vocational, route of pastoral ministry for all those years. And, and then even now with leaders.church, we're providing resources for pastors. We're consulting pastors. We're helping, churches reach their communities. And we love the church.
Ashley: We love the church.
Jonathan: So
Ashley: We love the local church.
Austin: I love that. And you guys have also I mean, you've, you've served in the men's ministry, helping organize men's events for churches, w women's event. I mean, you guys have done a lot of different, different seats across kind of the church volunteer, or vol not just volunteer, but staff positions, too.
Jonathan: Yeah, we've There's been a lot of great experience. I mean, we're, I'm thankful for every experience, have no regrets with everything that we've done in ministry so far.
Austin: I love that. Yeah. So, okay, I gotta just ask a tiny sub-question. So, like, you're at church, you're working hard, you're married. It's like, how do you stay focused on work? I mean, how do you do it? You know? It's like, we work together, and it's like I We can't have a- 10-minute meeting without me, me being goofy on some level. So, I mean
Jonathan: Well, you know
Austin: Lot of accountability, I guess.
Jonathan: Yeah. The, the
Ashley: When you have an office of people watching you, you know?
Jonathan: Oh, yeah, and there are so many people. We're like, "Hmm," you know. You know, and
Austin: Open door policy, guys
Jonathan: Oh, no, we're just friends, you know?
Austin: Oh, I love that.
Jonathan: Oh, but there was one moment where all of a sudden it was kinda like, "Hmm, that's a little bit more of, like, flirtatious talk versus
Austin: Ashley.
Jonathan: Versus
Austin: Flirting with a boss. I mean, come on. Let's go.
Jonathan: Well, I always like to joke that I had to hire her, you know, first to get her to marry me, so.
Austin: Yeah. You know, you had to get to know her on a, you know, deep level.
Jonathan: I guess so.
Austin: Well, that's, that's really cool.
Jonathan: Yeah, it's, it's fun. Yeah. I mean, I love it.
Ashley: We've always loved working together.
Austin: That's cool that you guys have been able to work together because I think a lot of couples want to and then they, they're not really prepared for the reality of working together. And just the level of, like, humility communication. Like, putting the highest needs of the relationship above your own personal preference like, to be able to work together.
Jonathan: And we had to figure things out of, okay, well, how does this work practically? So right or wrong, early in the marriage, we decided, I think w if I recall, we would, like, pull in the garage, and once once the We'd be sitting in the car or whatever, and it's like, okay, well, once, once we go inside, then, like, the work conversation just you know, to create that separation. Otherwise you could just be talking about work stuff all the time. And obviously
Austin: Ugh, yeah
Jonathan: There's things that do intertwine with your personal life and, you know, but we really try to make a conscious decision to create a little bit of separation there, so that way your marriage isn't completely built just on your working ministry relations from the ground up.
Austin: Now, one, one other part that I, I wanna highlight, too, and we don't have to name-drop any here, but, but I know that when this very large church you guys were having these See, they, they, they won't brag about themselves. Okay, so I'm just gonna say it. This large, epic church you guys were working for would bring in pretty big-name people. You guys were kinda like, you help hosted 'em. Like, you were like
Ashley: You were like the who's who
Austin: You, you were like, they wanted you guys with the VIPs.
Ashley: Well well, not always. Not always. You're being very generous.
Jonathan: Yeah, not always.
Austin: But there were lots of times, though.
Ashley: Yeah, we've been in, we've been in the room with, with some big-name people and watched how they interact. And, yeah, it was definitely a big blessing because I would say most of everyone that we've met in our journey behind the scenes are the real deal.
Austin: Yeah. But one thing that I love is that the leadership above you guys trusted you to play really, really key roles with some really, really, like, church kingdom impact people. And I just think that's awesome. Like they want, they wanted you guys interfacing with, you know, the VIPs. I just think
Jonathan: Yeah, it, it's an honor, you know? And it's fun to be able to talk to people who, you know, you can learn from. And, you know, that's all been part of what has shaped us to who we are today. You know, you just you glean things from different people, and and that's, that's been a blessing, for sure.
Rachel: Yeah, for sure.
Austin: Yeah. I love it. All right, I love it. All right, let's go to our next question. So we wanna talk a little bit about just ministry. Ministry in general, and maybe some of the pressures that might be behind ministry, like, as a married couple. Es especially pastorally, leadership, all that. So what unique pressures do pastors and ministry leaders face in their marriages that most people won't see or understand?
Jonathan: Yeah. I think the, the thing that first comes to mind initially for me is pastors in general will have a pressure on themselves that they place on themselves to be perfect. because they're the pastor, they're the shepherd, they're the teacher, and so there's a, a, a, maybe a belief they have that they have to have it all figured out if they're the ones now shepherding and teaching other people. And so consequently, you know, whether they're intentionally not being honest or maybe that wouldn't be exactly what they're doing but it's just, like, there's this pressure to feel like, "Yeah, yeah, my life's all perfect, and yeah, my marriage is perfect. My kids are perfect," and and I know of, because I, I grew up in the church, so I mean, my, my dad worked in ministry my whole life, so that's, like, all I know. And there's so many stories of people that you, you hear or see where the pastors were so hard on their kids to make sure the kids are perfect because there was a, a persona they had to, you know, kind of live out that, well then, once the kids are out of the house, you know, you can you countless stories of pastors' kids that aren't serving God today.
I mean, I, you know? so, so that translates to the marriage, because you think that you have to have this perfect marriage if you're gonna be counseling other married couples or pre-coun premarital counseling. Or, or just preaching from the pulpit, and, and, you know, so that's a pressure that I think they put on themselves. And, and I think even early on, that was a pressure I put on myself. I don't know if Ashley would feel the same, but you, you people just look at you differently because they kind of, in some ways, look up to you, because you are the pastor. You have that title. And, so that's something. I don't know if something else comes to mind for you.
Rachel: Yeah, and I think there's shame in your weaknesses. that if you're honest about where you're at, that someone could hold that against you. Or that someone would look at you differently, like you said. and really, we okay, should, right? We don't should on people but we ought to have a really great marriage in order to pour into other marriages or other parents, as we're mothering, parenting leading people. But it's like, I think we think if we admit that we're weak, then we will lose, or we will our, our influence or our image will suffer. Yeah. And all the while, everything does suffer, right? Because I know leaders who have admitted, "We, we sacrificed everything. We put our marriage on the back burner." "We put our kids on the back burner- " for the sake of the ministry." Confusing that ministry and our relationship with God are really two different things. And so, I don't know, that's what I think. Yeah. And all the while, it's like they could have put the energy into their marriage and their children, and just doing it right behind the scenes instead of trying to look good in front of people.
It's, you're giving energy no matter what. Like, you're giving effort no matter what. Like, a lot of times, the effort can be put on, kinda like you said, like, be, be perfect. And I think if we're attributing as much positive intent to pastors and leaders, it's, well, they probably just didn't know the right tools, or they weren't equipped with the right help, support. And maybe a little, a little bit culturally, it's kinda like this pressure. But yes, it's still a choice, like a willing choice to just create the perfectionism and the image, and really put everything on the back burner instead of just spending that energy doing the right thing or putting in the sweat equity behind closed doors.
Jonathan: I will say, y what you said reminded me of, of this, that social media definitely has not helped. Because, you know, especially when you have, like, a, a, a more well-known pastor that ends up, making a mistake and you know, fall or wh whatever you wanna say. And, and so there i the pastors with social media, I think, have gotten a little bit more on the microscope in people's eyes, and it's a lot easier to get attacked. And, and so it's, it's safer in their eyes to just kind of withhold and not really be vulnerable from the pulpit or, you know, in their interactions. And to make sure that people don't really know the real life that's happening behind the closed doors in their home. because so much is at stake and, you know, you don't wanna be criticized online, and you know, and, and, and, and people talk. And, you know, there's all those aspects that contribute to this pressure, I think, that they face.
Austin: Well, and I think it's good to talk about this, because I think it even gives, like, the layperson just more context, and maybe even more grace or more empathy for the pressure of leadership. You know? And, you know, Rachel and I have spent a lot of time doing counseling work and coaching work for pastors, and so I can really validate what you're saying is that we've heard in many, many conversations that there is just kind of a baseline fear of, like, who do they even talk to about it? Because even their senior pastor or other people that, you know, they work with, either as peers or that they are, you know, are accountable to, you know, they put that pressure on them, you know? It's like, "Hey," like, "we're the leaders, we can't struggle. We can't this, we can't that." And so then, like, what was maybe something small ends up festering into something big because they didn't know where to take it. And as we know in the ministry world, like, if you do have, you know, not may let's just say moral failure is the top, let's just say you have, like, a moral struggle somewhere in the middle even just a moral struggle, I think people are legitimately afraid, like, "I could lose the pulpit, I could lose my job.
I could People may not ever forget this about me," you know? I mean, that's a real conversation I've had countless times. And, and then again, it could've been something small. It could've been easy if it was dealt with immediately. But with weeks, months, years of time, that's when it typically and then ends up on the news, I feel like, you know.
Rachel: Right, yeah. So we'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Do you believe that church leaders even feel safe to admit when they need marriage support, or do they hide it in fear of losing their leadership or their authority or, like Austin said, even the pulpit?
Jonathan: You wanna go first?
Rachel: You go first.
Jonathan: Yeah, I, I alluded to that as well earlier. And yeah, no, I don't think they feel safe. I don't, I don't, in general. I there, there are some out there. So I'm not this isn't a blanket statement. But I think in general, most, most pastors, ministry leaders, they don't feel that safety. and I think, a lot of This might be m well, I know it's not probably more true, but what I notice, I, I've been to a lot of different churches in rural settings. And one of the things I've noticed in rural settings is, more so than in a city or suburban area where there's a lo larger population, in the rural areas, everyone knows everything about everyone's business. And so that's even harder for the pastor out there because they, they literally actually probably can't actually really be truly fully honest because then that's when the rumor mill starts. And, you know, one thing leads to another, and just this little thing, a moment of being vulnerable with someone across the table at the coffee shop turns into the whole town.
And then, and then they end up getting run out of the town. I mean, I've seen things like this happen as we've worked with churches. And, you know, you'd be I mean, it's crazy what people are willing to do out there. And, you know, and, and, and they and they apparently love God, but, you know, they are happy to run the pastor out of town. So there is an aspect for pastors where, yeah, maybe some of these things like afraid of the pulpit or, you know, losing their leadership and those things, I, I don't, I don't I'm not discounting that part, but I'm also just kinda highlighting some of it's, it is actually a little bit Their, their, their belief is, is a little bit, legit.
Austin: Yeah, they 'cause they've seen it. They've seen it happen.
Jonathan: And so the solution for them is, well, they just will withhold, and they just, you know, kind of settle with maybe a little bit more of a meeker, me mediocre marriage in some ways. And it's like, "Well, this is just part of life," and, you know? Not realizing that it still can be better if they got the right tools, the right resources, tapping into people like yourself, that, you know, especially in this day and age where we, we can actually cross borders, and we can connect digitally. and that's one of the things that I think you guys have done a great job of of being able to bring people on in Zoom and actually create a sense of community and, and investing in, people investing in themselves and in their marriages. And so that does exist, but I don't know that people, necessarily understand that that's out there, and so consequently, in the rural areas, it just comes to mind for me that, you know, it is a little bit harder.
Austin: Well, I, I love that you mentioned Zoom because, it is so fun. Like, when we are on calls with all of our couples, we could have people on both coasts and in, you know, Guatemala, you know? 'Cause we have couples outside of the United States. So it's like, it's just so cool. Like, I just thank God. I literally thank God almost every time I get on Zoom. I'm like, "This really is cool." "This is like some Star Trek stuff here." Where it's like I c- I can literally be on a call- I can feel like I'm in a room. And I really believe, and I, I don't have any real theological basis for this, but, you know, like when Jesus says, "When two or more are gathered in my name, my presence will be there." So I'm like, "Okay, God, what if there's
Rachel: We are gathered
Austin: What if there's, like, 40 of us, but we're all in different places? We're still together." You know?
Jonathan: It counts.
Rachel: In spirit, for sure.
Austin: It, it, it's gotta count, right? And, and, and as evidence, we do feel the Spirit a lot when we're doing that. But but, yeah, I, I, I think that if pastors could realize that, you know, they don't necessarily have to, like, find the, the village therapist. Like, there's resources that they can get plugged into people that all over the world are utilizing and feel like they have, like, a place where they can go where other people get it.
Jonathan: Yeah. And it's a safe place for them.
Rachel: Yes. Yeah. Nobody's spreading rumors with- Betty Sue at the coffee shop.
Austin: Yeah. Well, and then again, it's like I, I, I m- I can't remember if I finished this thought earlier or not, but I think especially in the church ministry world, it's like if you go down once, I think people are afraid their career is over. You know? Because it's like, bec especially with the internet and social media now it's like you know, when you talk about, like, you know, people's dirty laundry gets aired out, the whole rumor mill gets going it's like now you can find it. You know? It's like in the
Rachel: It's there on the interwebs, yeah.
Austin: And I remember when, when I was doing my youth leader, like, my youth pastor leader insurance training, you know, where our insurance team came into the church and was training all, all of us youth leaders and they were like, they literally said, "Even an allegation and we'll take you o off the team." You know? And so it was like, which they, they, talked great stuff about not being in cars or rooms alone with all that. Which it's all great, but they, I can never get that out of my head. They're like, and I appreciate this level of excellence because people people deserve that. Like, care and safety and all that. But it was like, "Even an allegation and then we'll just tell you that you're done." Because the ministry's more important than you. And I, and it's like- I respected that a lot back then, and I respect it now, but as I hear that echo in my head, I'm like
Rachel: How many pastors have been told that? It's like the ministry's more important than you individually. So it's like, I think that a lot of people are afraid to admit, like, "Hey, we need help." Because it's like, is that, like, self-admitting, you know? It's like people don't, people don't wanna raise their hand that their marriage needs help. You know, because
Ashley: It's kinda on a different scale, like, when you're in church and they're like, "So, who's been struggling? Raise your hand. all eyes and you know-" "everybody closed, bow your heads." And it's like you know people are like I've actually mastered the closing of the eyes and looking at the person that's a guest next to you- 'cause you've been praying for them for your whole life, you know?
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
Ashley: I'm like, "I will know if they raise their hand so I know how to re bring this back up."
Rachel: That, that's good. Well, let let me move on to the next one here. do you believe that pastors and ministry leaders need intentional marriage support, even more than the average couple? Okay. So like I, I think we can all agree all couples will benefit from having marriage support. But do you believe pastors or ministry leaders, th they need it even more? And, and why?
Ashley: We went back and forth on this on the way here. We were like, "Hmm, certainly not less." We're like, "Hmm, more. Let me think about that." And I remember, remember James 3:1 that talks about, hey, listen, if you're a teacher, like be take it easy on, on your teacher, because they will be judged more strictly. And so all the more, leaders really will be accountable to God for how clean every corner of their life is. I do think actually that church leaders, people in leadership that have positions of authority ought to invest in their marriage to a deeper degree. And I do appreciate the vision and the mission of CCM of changing the stigma behind investing in your marriage. That it's not a bad thing, that it's actually the best thing that you can do because it's the greatest investment that we have.
Jonathan: Yeah. yeah, I mean, I, I, I definitely agree. And, you know, you can't lead people where you haven't gone. And you can you can link arms with people and walk them through a journey that they're going through. But if you've never experienced it, then you, you can't lead them in the same way that if you had, experienced it, that you can be maybe a half step in front of them in your leadership and guiding people through what they're going through. So obviously in the marriage context, you know, the, the healthier each pastor and spouse is then that just, you know The way, the thing I always tell Ashley is it's like this is the, the, the byproduct of our personal growth, Ashley growing, me growing. The byproduct has been our healthier marriage. And it's, it's an incredible marriage. And it's not just an incredible marriage. We, we're, we're Our parenting has im improved. Our relationships with other people have improved. Our leadership of people has improved.
Everything is, is really pr improved in terms of relationships. And so but that's happened because we made the investment. And we've been digging, digging in and, and growing personally and working to grow together. And so I do think as well that it is more important for pastors. If they're in the pulpit and they're trying to teach people things, but then at home it's kind of not quite matching up with what they're, they're trying to Well, then there's a disconnect there. And so it's, it's super important for them to be as healthy as they can be, not only spiritually speaking, but emotionally and, and in all other ways. And the emotional health aspect, particularly with marriage, is a big one. And it affects everything you do, so.
Ashley: Have you ever heard of sister sandpaper? Okay. Okay. So when I was
Rachel: What is this?
Ashley: Okay. So when I was growing up, like in church, in small country church the ladies would talk about, "Oh, well, she's a sister sandpaper." Which meant like she's scratchy. You know, she's kinda rough around the edges. She's hard to deal with. She's not enjoyable to be around. She's sister sandpaper. And there may have been, like, a couple, you know, two or three of them at a time, right? I remember just being a teenager thinking like, "I don't really know." Like, I don't It didn't settle well with me then. That like, "Hmm, this is interesting." And as you grow personally, you realize that like if I have trouble with someone else it's just because there's something in me that's wanting healed. So in regards to leading in ministry, that I wanna be a person that shows up and can love people no matter who they are no matter if they're a little bit scratchy no matter if they're a little bit rough around the edges, maybe they're a little critical, maybe they're just always, you know, having something bad to Oh, I want to show up and be able to just love them and love on them and not be, like, offended, like, putting her out here because she's, she's sister sandpaper, right?
Rachel: That is so funny.
Ashley: So that's another way I think investing in our personal growth, investing in our marriage, we show up better to love people.
Jonathan: Yeah, for sure.
Rachel: And you have authority. Like, I, I love what you said, Jonathan, because it's really important. Like, there are many things that I am able to teach on, lead on, speak on, and I can say, "Listen," like, I have a, the authority, I can tell you in confidence that this is, like, if you do this, this will be the fruit. This scripture, here's how it's played out in my life. Here's what this means, and let me encourage you, and let me spur you on. We can't do that with conviction and with, like, in the power and the truth of the Holy Spirit if we haven't personally lived it out. Because And that's something that I take very seriously, we take very seriously of, okay, maybe I'm walking through this season, I'm going through something, or I'm faced with, with a sin. It's like, hey, I, I, I wanna I'm accountable before the Lord but I also want to be able to stand before others with authority that, yes, I have grown through this, and I have been there, and this is where I am.
And that's the hope that people need. I think a lot of couples and just people in general need hope. Because if they don't have hope that it's gonna get better, then why, w really why even try? That's why most people are just, they're just coasting through life. And so I think that you're I appreciate what you're saying- Jonathan, because, and both of you saying, that you have to have that authority to then be able to speak that because there's that inauthenticity. People can always feel it.
Jonathan: Yeah, they can.
Austin: Yeah, be because ultimately you could just parrot a book that you read and not get through to someone. But if you actually have authority, there's like a gravitas
Rachel: You can feel it
Austin: And they, they feel it spiritually. It's kind of like we were talking about prepping for this episode today. You know, it's kind of like, well, do we You know, like what if we don't have a perfect script? It's like, it just doesn't matter. Like, people feel from your spirit. You know? Like, one thing one of our pastors, Pastor Amy says, and she probably said that on the podcast episode we did, is that people people drink from your spirit. You know, that's like one thing that they live by. And and so like part of like even being on the worship team in our church, like, she wants to know what your spiritual life is like. You can't just be a great musician because she believes people drink from your spirit. So, like you can parrot a book. Like, you could, you could take this book here, Arrow Striker, the one of the best books ever written. And, and, and you could just read it out loud and, but if you've never actually lived that, walked that out
Rachel: ChatGPT a sermon. Mm-hmm.
Austin: It's like you could, you could say it, and so and it just, it doesn't land in someone's spirit because it feels empty. You know, like it feels empty.
Rachel: Because it is.
Austin: It feels, it feels fake. But it's like, if you've actually done the work And this really actually leads us to the next question, so let me tee it up in a second. If you've actually done the work, I think people feel it from you. I think- I think it When I think about the Holy Spirit testifying to other to our spirit, I do think our spirit testifies to a to someone else's spirit. And so, like, when you have done the work offline, like behind closed doors, in the hard moments, I think other people feel that from you. And so then it's like maybe one word from you might move the needle in their heart. Whereas someone else could parrot a book on marriage, you know, 20 paragraphs at a marriage conference, you know, from s a book or a PowerPoint deck, and it just goes , Like, it just doesn't land. Which, so the, the next question we wanted to ask was, and we've unpacked it already, naturally, a little bit, which is basically how has investing in your own marriage changed the way you lead, minister to, and counsel other couples?
And Ashley, you already kind of talked about this, of like if you've done some of that inner work yourself, then you can love other people, even the, the Sister Sandpaper, you know? And so, like, that's one way that you have allowed this work to change the way you minister. It's like, like you're saying, if you've done your own work, if you've figured out the parts maybe that you have not loved about yourself, that you've rejected in yourself, well, then you don't have to work that out in other people anymore. So, like, that's one really great way that the marriage work you guys have done has enabled you to be better ministers of the gospel because then your own attachments don't get in the way. Like, you can actually be present with someone, maybe someone who might rub you the wrong way right, like Sister Sandpaper. And, that's what I came from, right? Rub you the wrong way. Sister Sandpaper really rubs you the wrong way.
Rachel: The wrong way.
Austin: A little scratchy. But, but it's like, but you know she's only scratchy because she's wounded. It's not necessarily because she's wicked it's because maybe she's wounded. You know? And so you being able to see, oh, aw. She's just a little wounded. And that's why she acts like that. So I'm gonna, instead of labeling that as she's trying to attack me or something, I'm gonna be like, "Oh, she probably feels insecure so she's overcompensating." So you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna be really interested in her. You know? And, like, and I'm just gonna give her the love that she's seeking so that there's bond and rapport, and now you actually have influence over her, right? So anyways, the question is basically what's some other examples of, like, you guys have been investing in your marriage, you guys are, are marriage leaders. and so, like, through that whole journey, like, how else has that affected your ability to, to witness to people, to share the gospel with people, to love on people?
Like, what, how else has that helped you?
Jonathan: Well, I, you know, it's helped immensely in every relationship. you know, you just show up differently when you've resolved the things in your own personal life, and then as a married couple, that things that are resolved that, you know, weren't before. So kind of like you were saying with the au authority. It just, it, it just, it just kind of almost overflows. It just kind of almost comes natural. And so when it comes to leading people, for example, you know, Austin, like you were just saying, where you kind of all of a sudden can see, oh, that you have insight into what's going on in someone else. like the things I've learned from you guys, pr prior to that, I would not have been aware of, oh, that's why that person might be doing that because of X, Y, Z. But now that I've done the work in my own life and I can see things differently, and then it allows me to be able to be more aware of how I can help and lead other people or, or minister to other people.
So that insight has been really, really, really helpful. so that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. I don't know if you have thoughts.
Ashley: I think there's a lot I could say about this because I love you guys so much and you've made such a big impact on me and our marriage. I'm more happy, joyful, peaceful. And I am happier with me than- I was years ago. Like, if you guys haven't, if the listeners haven't picked up on Austin and Rachel they're so much fun. But they also are no-nonsense about the things that matter. And Rachel, you are the kind of leader that you live by authority, and you call women in your life to a higher standard. And I have been one of those women that I was stuck in the drama triangle: hero, victim, villain. The victim is my, mm, persona of choice, or persona of
Rachel: Your particular flavor
Ashley: Of par my part my flavor.
Jonathan: Favorite flavor.
Ashley: I don't choose it, but unconsciously, I suppose there have been many times where I've chosen it. And I've been with you before. I remember one time talking, like we were out shopping or something, and I sa- You asked me a question, and I was like, "Oh, no, Jonathan would never, n- Jonathan won't let me do that," or I, something like that. And you were like- Why do you say it? You just looked at me like, "Why do you say it like that?" In such love and grace. Like, such love and grace. Like, I was like, "She just spanked me and I feel so loved."
Jonathan: Yep, that's what
Ashley: I remember we were in DSW
Austin: Slap on the wrist. Yeah
Ashley: And you some sort of shoe
Jonathan: Something about my shoes. I have s- I have my preferences on, on shoes.
Ashley: Yeah. I don't know. I s yeah, I said something like, "Yeah, Jonathan won't let me do that," or something. Anyway, that's a really great example of being a victim and not owning- "No, this is a choice, and I'm agreeing with my husband to do something. I'm not a victim about it." "I'm choosing this." And so you calling that out in me has made me a better person. More happy, joyful, peaceful. I'm not a victim about this life that I've chosen, and, you know this life I've created. It's mine. It's everything I've ever wanted. And so in general, I am more happy, joyful, peaceful. We were talking on the way here too about just wanting to articulate a good example from our marriage. And this does take a lot of humility to admit it. But I was I used to be, in the earlier days of our marriage, more emotionally charged. So in adrenaline, in drama. And what that means is, like, you know, might get triggered about something, or I might have a feeling about something, and then just kind of like, you know, you're like, "Ni, ni, ni, ni, ni."
You know, like- You know, you just kind of like You know? And I would interrupt him. You know, he would start talking, I would have a feeling, the light, the light switch would go on. And then I just wanted to talk. So- I would talk, and I would interrupt him and, you know be in adrenal, in drama about things, which, you know, I didn't wanna live that way, but didn't know how to get out of it. And so in joining your pr in joining the program, learning things like the toss, which is, like, we have a, we have a thing, like a hacky sack. We throw it back and forth, and girlfriend doesn't talk unless she has the ball. Right? And so I learned in that moment, first joining our program, like, "Oh, I'm not supposed to be talking right now. I don't have the ball." You know? Like, I don't- This isn't my turn to talk.
Austin: It's husband's turn.
Ashley: It's husband's turn.
Jonathan: Yeah, it's husband's turn.
Ashley: Now he gets to, now he to get, now he gets to get it out. And because I would interrupt him or I would get emotionally charged, he learned the habit of withholding which means to not be honest, to not share fully what's going on in him. So he learned to stay quiet because I would over talk him or I'd get He didn't wanna upset me. He didn't wanna rock the boat. Am I saying that right?
Jonathan: Well, well, yeah, it felt like I had to walk on eggshells some or I was about to walk on eggshells. And you know you're like, "I don't know that I wanna go there 'cause I don't know if I say something wrong, then, you know, are, are we gonna have more adrenaline?" and so it was just easier to not say things. You know? And
Ashley: And I remember being like, "Why won't you talk to me?"
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. And everyone always You know, you hear, like, in marriage things and, you know- "Oh, communication. You know, you gotta communicate." But, but rarely do people actually tell you practically, okay, well, what does that look like?
Austin: What does it look like?
Ashley: How
Jonathan: How
Ashley: Effective
Jonathan: Okay, so yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. And, and if you're not taught So we were just in this cycle
Ashley: Cycle
Jonathan: So to speak where, okay, well, I won't say much. And then, or if I do, there's interruptions happening. And then it's, okay, well, I guess I won't say anything 'cause she wants to talk about her stuff, you know or whatever.
Ashley: Or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember not feeling that connected to you. But once we made the investment and got the tools that we that we needed, then, like, I, we're more connected than we've ever been. You know? And I've learned to not interrupt my husband.
Austin: I love that you said that. You're like, just about communication. Like, that is what's always spouted out. Like we just need to communicate. It's like, well, I can, I could look at someone and be like, "You just need to change your oil in your car." You know? And they're like, "Uh " "You just need to do it. Like, just go do it." You know? And they're like, "Well, how do I do that?"
Ashley: Well
Austin: You can say that about a thousand things. And one thing we say a lot in CCM, it's like, "Hey, h give yourself time and grace because you're not trained until you're trained." You know? And, and I think that communication, we shouldn't wing it. There's a lot of things you can wing in life, you know like cooking. Okay, like, wing it. Right? Like, maybe your outfits, wing it. You know, planting a garden, wing it. You know? Like, a little trial and error is okay. But I tend to believe, like, the things that are most important to us, like our marriage, or, like, heavy conversations like, why would we wing it? You know? So, like, you guys citing that framework is amazing. And we have lots of frameworks for lots of different con conversations. Well, I guess we really have, like, three or four, five frameworks. It's not, like, a million. But, but why wing something so important? You know what I mean? Like, why risk it?
You know? Like, if you care a lot about it, you protect it, you know, like what you guys are doing. So the fact that, like, you guys would get out the hacky sack, play the game together, like, use the actual framework together it shows that, like, I care more about us being on the same team than me winning. You know? And actually, I really appreciate your humility and just being able to, like, tell the truth about what you've struggled with, which is literally, like earlier, we're talking about, like, all these pastors can't do. So thank you. And plus, this is gonna be seen by millions. So they're gonna be like, oh, in the grocery store, "Oh, that's the girl that, you know, had a hard time not interrupting."
Ashley: In retrograde. Right. Yeah.
Austin: And, and
Ashley: And it's, it's been
Austin: Then you'll be like, "Heck yeah, girl. I'm better now."
Ashley: That's right. But, like, even, like, just the little tiny, like, hints of interruption where other, like It may not have always been super overt. But now that we've learned that, and, you know, you guys have modeled that so well, we can spot it. It's really funny. Even from, like, other leaders where I'm like, "She just interrupted him, like, three times," you know? And, you know, like, we'll be like, "Oh," you know? But it's like most people wouldn't notice it, but it is a very subtle way to lead and to love people, to model how to respect your husband how to respect each other in communication how to be connected.
Jonathan: Yeah, for sure. I was gonna say something else about communication too that I just kind of thought of while you were talking, Austin, and that is that, when you talk about communication, well, communication means different things to different people. And one of the things that I've learned from you guys over the years is, um And I didn't, I didn't even really fully have the, my, my mind wrapped around this to the degree that I do now, having learned from you, but is, is how much our upbringing influences our life. And I mean, obviously, probably everyone listening is like, "Yeah, well, of course it does." But, I think to a degree that I didn't even understand. and we come from different family backgrounds, and so many people come from different family backgrounds, and they come together. And so you've got one type of situation in one family, in like say Ashley's, mine, you know, communication would look different in my family. And, and so then you're, you say, "Okay, we'll communicate."
Well, if we don't understand what each other like how it actually works then you're just gonna be hitting roadblocks. And that's what I think happens even with people like us who were pastoring in churches, but n we no one taught us, you know?
Rachel: And we we had a good marriage.
Jonathan: Yeah. And we would say most people would look at our marriage and probably say, "Yeah, that's a, th they're, they're a great couple."
Austin: You're good.
Jonathan: And, and that wa we were.
Rachel: We're, yeah.
Jonathan: You know? You know?
Rachel: For sure.
Jonathan: But yeah. So.
Austin: But, but it's, it's just so cool, like imagining that when, when great marriages, great couples then get the tools to go to the next level and realizing there's no ceiling to how good it can get. And then how much more fruitful that your work can be in people's lives. When we're not winging it, you know, when we're not just making it up as we go, like there, like success leaves clues, you know? And like really successful marriages, they do certain things, you know? And, and it's like we don't have to just guess about what works in marriage. We don't have to guess about what works in communication. Like you said understanding that communication is not just words or the framework, but it's body language, it's tone, it's, it's eye contact. It's like proximity. It's all those things. And when we take time to understand our spouse well enough to know how they feel the most loved and the most safe then we can, you know, we can, we can, we like to say we can prepare the runway before we try to land the plane.
You know? Like I know like for Rachel, like if I need to communicate something, certain things, I know I need to like, I need to work on the runway before I try to land the plane. You know? Like I don't just kick down the door and say something, you know? I'm like, "Hey, honey, is this a good time for you guys?" "You got a few minutes?" You know? "How's your day been?" You know? Like get connected, build some rapport, you know? Before maybe we need to talk about something tricky you know?
Jonathan: Yeah. Well, and I think on that point is just learning the fact that like you can actually do that. You can actually like- "Hey, I, there's a couple things I'd like to talk about. What, like maybe when would be a good time?"
Austin: Yeah. Setting the appointment.
Jonathan: You know? So it's like you know, then you just eliminate a lot of drama or potential things that could blow up into a bigger deal. It, and all you had to do was just make sure you're both on the same page of, sure, what we can have a sit down and let's talk together when we're both ready to, we're not distracted, we're not doing other things. And, you know, it's the right moment.
Austin: I love that.
Rachel: All right. So final question. We really wanna hear from you guys. If you could sit down with another couple in leadership, in marriage ministry, maybe like a pastor and his spouse, who deep down know that their marriage needs some attention needs some care, but they feel like they can't afford to take either time away from ministry or they're afraid of losing the pulpit, what would you tell them?
Jonathan: I would tell them they can't afford not to. I, we know so many pastors where, things went south. And, I, I know a couple now even that's been, you know, in ministry for a long time and married for a long time, and things aren't good. And, you know, no one ever goes into marriage thinking it's not gonna work out. and, and they don't, you know, and, and in ministry. You don't, they don't go into it with that. They think, "Oh, yeah. Well, we'll be fine." Not understanding that if you don't take care of it, that it can slowly evolve in a negative way to the point where all of a sudden you look back and think, "Well, what just happened?" And, you know, so that's why when you see, you know, well, more well-known pastors online or whatever fall, and, and, you know, of course, that's always sad and heartbreaking. And, and we have a heart for the shepherd. I mean
Rachel: We do
Jonathan: Obviously being, what I'm doing now with leaders.church and just investing in pastors and you know, we have a unique heart for the shepherd. I feel like that not not everyone maybe would just because of our, my upbringing in ministry and all that stuff, you know, just kinda looking at life through a little bit different lens. But, you know, what, what I was, you know, essentially trying to say is just that, when you see those types of things happen in people's marriages, who are in ministry, you know, the reality is that that was not just like an overnight flip of the switch. That was something brewing in, in, over a long period of time. And so I guess my point is just you, you don't ever think you're gonna get No one thinks they're gonna get there. and, but if, if they don't invest in their marriage, if they don't carve out time for one another if they don't look to get the tools and, and, and they're putting ministry first, even if they're doing it together but it's, it's all about ministry, then, you know, over time, things can, can not go great.
And, marriage and marriage in ministry does not have to be, just like a mediocre thing. You know, I, I know of a pastor one time, I heard him from the pulpit say, "You know, in marriage, I mean, sometimes you just kinda have to walk around with one eye closed and one eye open." "You just kinda overlook things."
Rachel: It's awful.
Jonathan: And, and, and I, you know, I understand what he was communicating. But at the same time, I'm like, you know, but like, does it really have to be that way? I mean can you both grow and get healthier to where you can always have both eyes open and you're not really overlooking their quote, unquote, "faults" because, you just see them through- God's lens and you understand that all of us are broken people. We're all humans. Yes, even pastors, they're humans and their spouses are humans and, and, you know, we all have our various upbringings, kinda like we talked about, and, and the trauma or the things of the past that all of a sudden could come out of nowhere that none of us knew about. And so, the point is, is, yeah, absolutely you have to invest in your marriage. And and, and, and not only your marriage, but it's, it's your own personal growth, too. And I think that's the piece that I always like to come back to with you guys is, like, I learned that this isn't really just investing in my marriage, this is investing in me.
Rachel: Yeah, 'cause a marriage is made of the two of you.
Jonathan: Two individuals. So, you know it's not like you invest in that only. It's like if I don't grow or if she doesn't grow, or if we don't heal from past things, well then th this marriage can only get so far.
Rachel: Yeah, it can only get as far as you two are willing to go. Because people like to say sometimes, like, "Oh, I'm great, but my marriage is really struggling." And I'm like, "Your marriage is not some third thing." Like, if, if there's two healthy people, it's gonna be a healthy marriage. And if it's an unhealthy marriage, then one or both of the people are unhealthy.
Jonathan: Yeah. I know a couple that, their, their ministry, their marriage is really based on their ministry. And, I remember sitting down at lunch with them and, you know, my heart actually broke. I was just like, "This is, this is your marriage. It's, all it is is about ministry," and it's, it's nothing but that. And, and that's the thing they enjoy doing together. That's how they connect. That, and and, and I think that's great that you connect through ministry. Obviously, we enjoy working together and, and doing various ministry. But it, it can't be just based on that. And if you're not careful, that's what can happen. So anyway, that's why I think it's very important to invest.
Ashley: Yeah. I think about the quote, "We all sit down to a banquet of consequences." We will all eat from that table. It's just what do we wanna be eating, you know? Do we wanna be eating the good fruit, or other things that we've invested in and didn't realize what it would produce. So, yeah.
Jonathan: And
Ashley: Very well said
Jonathan: You know, one of the, the statements I think I first heard from you, Austin years ago, was a glass can only spill what it contains. And, you know, pastors are pouring out their glass
Rachel: Constantly
Jonathan: All the time.
Ashley: They are.
Rachel: Yeah, constantly.
Jonathan: And if you're not investing in your own self, refilling yourself spiritually, emotionally, I mean even physically, I mean just in every way, taking care of your body, taking care of your heart, your soul your mind, everything, you can't fully give out when you're running on empty. And, and that won't last forever. And, you know, a car can last, you know, on l on E for a little bit, but there comes a point where it won't. And, so that's something that just- I, you know, I would just highly encourage pastors, if you're in a spot now and you're listening and you're thinking, "Man you know, I'm, you know, it's okay, but, you know, could be better," well, you know, obviously keep listening to this podcast and, and get resources to help it 'cause it's so important to invest in yourself.
Ashley: I just
Rachel: And our
Ashley: Oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say we are passionate about it because we wanna build the Church. We want, we want to see the Holy Spirit move in a way unlike we've ever seen. We want God to work. We want the prodigal son and daughter to come back home. Like, we wanna build the Church. We wanna be a part of resourcing and investing in the Church. Because the Church is Chri is, is the bride of Christ. And so that's our passion because what happens whenever things break or things fail, it's like, yes, God can always be glorified but the enemy wins to just a little bit of a degree. And we just wanna be a part of lifting the Church, building the Church.
Rachel: That's very well said. And it goes along with what I just felt really led to speak to our listeners. If you are listening and you are a pastor or someone in church ministry or leadership, we wanna say thank you. Thank you for what you are doing to build the local church and to spread the gospel. We know that ministry is not for the faint of heart. it's a lot. And yes, everything that we're saying, like, you are called to a higher standard, but in the same way, like, I wanna make sure that you are appreciated and that you, recognize that our hearts are to equip you. Like, we are very, very, very passionate, like you said, in equipping the Church because really what we're up to, like, you know how we open the episodes, it's like we are equipping Christ-minded couples. And the reason is because we are m better examples and disciplers for th for the kingdom. And we are more effective when we have our own stuff worked out, like Austin said so that we're not working it out on other people.
And so we're very passionate about this and we just want anyone in church ministry, you know, even if you're, like, the photographer or the social media designer that's important. And what you're doing is gospel kingdom work. And so thank you for what you're doing for the kingdom. you know, our prayers are for you. We love you. We prayed for you before we started recording this episode. And we really hope that this encourages you and spurs you on to, get the support because you deserve it. And there are people that want to just cheer you on because in the body of Christ, like, that's what we do. If you think about the Acts church, like, nobody was in need. That's both, like, physically and spiritually. Like, they were they were together. And I really, I, I'm, my heart is, I always just go back to Acts right now 'cause I'm like, "Okay. All right. Jesus is coming back. I wanna be equipped." And what was the church supposed to be like?
Let's do it. Let's go.
Austin: Yeah. Well, and Rach, one thing that I, I do wanna say too, just before we wrap up here, you know, you're talking about the early church and meeting the needs. And one thing that really inspired me this week is we had, another couple join CCM this week. They've been married 41 years, and, the husband is the, basically the family marriage kinda life pastor at their church. And I, I, I, I We're so passionate about making sure that everyone is resourcing their marriage. But it's especially just amazing, like, when another pastor couple joins our program, and just realizing, like, hey, they've been married 41 years. They're already serving the church in this role, but they're realizing that, like, they still have needs that they want that, that, that they need met. they still have room to grow. They still have room to improve the way that they can serve the church. And I just love when the church has this attitude of building each other up and supporting each other and being better because, you know, I mean, Jesus says, "Be perfect, you know, because your Father in Heaven is perfect."
And, you know, the Lord knows, you know, we're not gonna become perfect perfect, you know? And I, I do believe that there's a, there is a deep sanctification in our lives for sure. But it's like he's like, "I know you're not gonna be perfect, but just try." And, and I really think that the calling for a Christian is that we never stop growing. We never stop trying. We never, we never stop looking at Christ as the standard in our lives. And, and I know that for us, if we're looking at Christ as the standard, then, we'll get there in heaven. That's it. You know? And, and even then, you know, Christ is still Christ and but, yeah, I just appreciate you sharing that and and, I love that we get to play our small part in helping build up the church and making sure that, like in Acts, everyone's needs are met, and, you know, that we can support each other, so. Yeah. Well, Jonathan, Ashley man, we had so much fun with you guys today, and what a great episode.
You guys shared a lot of amazing things, and again, from a perspective of having lived it for so many years being in church ministry, church leadership, behind the curtain of all of that. And I, and I really believe that because of your testimony, that someone watching here today will feel hope. You know, they'll at least feel encouraged. And again like we said in the beginning, I think they'll just feel seen. At a minimum, they'll be like, "Okay. All right. They get it." And hopefully that plants a seed in their heart where maybe they'll be willing to come out of the, out of the shadows and be like, "Hey." Whether it's with, whether it's with someone like us or any other qualified professional that can help in their marriage, that they'll come out of the shadows and go, "Okay. All right. We do need a little bit of loving. We need a little bit of maintenance. We need to be We need some tuning," because you guys, have a testimony of, of walking that path.
So I appreciate you guys being here and sharing part of your personal story and your ministry story and all the wisdom, and with gravitas because you guys have actually been in that world. And it ain't just reading words from a book. It's, it's from your experience. So I really appreciate you. It's a gift that you shared it with us and a gift that you shared it with the millions that are gonna be watching this episode. So we love you guys.
Ashley: Well, thank you.
Austin: Thanks. Yeah.
Ashley: We love you too.
Austin: Thank you. Thank you.
Ashley: Appreciate it. We enjoyed the conversation as well.
Austin: Awesome. Awesome. Ashley, you wanna, you wanna wrap us up just for fun?
Ashley: Yeah. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. If you love this podcast and enjoy it as much as I do, it would help us immensely if you would like, comment, subscribe. It helps us so much to get this message of having a Christ-centered marriage out into the world, and that would help us, so thank you so much.