Why Marriage Can No Longer Be an Afterthought in the Church (feat. Pastors Chad and Amy Fagerland)

Transcribed from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are automated and may occasionally be off.

Chad: No, it's 31. 31.

Austin: Jesus is coming back soon.

Chad: Wait.

Rachel: He hit the highway.

Chad: He hit the highway. We did this.

Austin: Geographical. I like it.

Chad: We're done.

Austin: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Conscious Christian Marriage podcast. We are your hosts, Austin and Rachel Holt. And today in the studio with us, we have some very, very special guests, Pastor Chad and Pastor Amy Fagerland. And we're very, very excited to be with them today. They are the lead pastors of Hope City Church in Harrisonville, Missouri, which just happens to be in the amazing county that we live in, Cass County, Missouri- AKA God's country. Can't say that enough. And we're gonna have a great discussion today, and one of the reasons we're here together is because we're gonna be co-leading a marriage conference together in a couple weeks, called the- Renewed Marriage Conference. It's going to be an incredible conference, and, c we can't wait to tell you about it. And for all those of you who are local or w who, who could get here, we'd love to see you at this conference, but more about that here in a little bit. So today, we're really gonna talk about why marriage ministry matters to the local church.

Chad: Awesome.

Austin: Why we think this conference is gonna be an amazing opportunity, and, and who knows what we'll talk about, too. It's gonna be a lot of fun. So welcome.

Chad: There you go.

Rachel: Thank you for being on the podcast today.

Chad: You guys, so good to be here.

Amy: So glad to be here with you all. It's gonna be a great time.

Austin: It's gonna be a great time. So just for fun, we really want our listeners to learn more about you guys. We love supporting the local church. We love meeting amazing pastors. And, and we love, we love all pastors, and we really love pastors who really have doubled down on marriage ministry which is super cool. So we'll talk more about that in a little bit, too. But I would love for everybody to know just a little bit more about you guys. Like snapshot of your love story how long you've been married, what it's like being in ministry together. Just kind of how you g how God brought you together. Just

Amy: I think as a quiz, we should let him go first

Rachel: Ooh

Amy: And see if he gets all those correct.

Chad: Man, this is not a good start.

Austin: I love it. So I, we need a pen. Yeah.

Rachel: Jotting right in.

Chad: Man, I did not put that on these notes.

Rachel: Do you have pen?

Austin: Love it. I like

Chad: I think I got this, though.

Amy: What's your anniversary date?

Austin: He's got it. He's got it.

Chad: I got it.

Austin: He's got it.

Chad: But no, the quick 30,000-foot flyover, so I'm an MK raised in West Africa. My wife is a PK, preacher's kid. And, when we came home from furlough in the mid-'80s, that's where we met. High school sweethearts. Started dating our senior year in high school, went to Bible college together. Got married, jumped right into full-time vocational ministry. So actually, vocational ministry and marriage are just kind of like hand-in-hand.

Amy: Hand-in-hand.

Chad: So 31 years. Did I get that right?

Amy: He got it right. He got it right.

Austin: Good job.

Chad: Let's go.

Austin: Nailed it.

Chad: I'm off to the races. 31 years of marriage, 31 years of ministry. And just to God be the glory.

Amy: That's amazing.

Austin: Full stop. Full stop. And you guys have kids?

Amy: Way to go.

Chad: We have kids.

Austin: Two kiddos.

Chad: Yeah, I'll let you take over now.

Amy: We have three amazing daughters, and they all love the Lord. They serve the Lord. It's just a joy, honestly, being able to be a mom. I lo- I love being a mom, and I love parenting my children. And the, to see your kids growing in the ways of the Lord, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. It's the best, most fulfilling reward you could ever get.

Austin: I love that. And I love that you have three daughters, 'cause we have three daughters.

Amy: Yay.

Austin: That is why.

Amy: I love, I love having daughters. Let me tell you.

Austin: So w so tell us, if you guys aren't working or doing ministry or, parenting, what do you guys like to do together? Like, what's your thing like?

Chad: Boy, that's another great question. I will tell you, having a, a weekly date night is something that we absolutely

Rachel: Thank you

Chad: Do, must do.

Amy: Non-negotiable

Chad: It's a non-negotiable. and I think that probably goes back to the first part of what you were saying. You know, not only are, are we, are we, are we friends and are we lovers and covenant partners but we're also ministry associates. You know, we're, like, on staff together working together. And so, you know, we can get into as much of that as you want. But a lot of boundaries are important when you're doing that. And one of the things that we said is having a weekly time that we go out where it's just the two of us. because what good is it, you know, if you, you gain the whole world and you lose your family. You know, you gain the whole world and you lose your marriage, it's just not worth it. So anyway, that's how, that's one of the things that we just, we really do. Like, we enjoy being together.

Amy: We really do.

Chad: We enjoy getting up having a cup of coffee together. We did that this morning. And just

Rachel: Aw

Chad: Shared life, just talked the word of God. I mean, just the simple things, you know?

Amy: Yeah. And, and seasons are different. You know, now our kids are all you know, at a, a place in life where we don't have to have babysitters and all that. They're, they're young adults so to speak. And but I think we've really tried to walk through the seasons well. And when A and what, people listening, you might have young kids. You're like, "Well, it must be nice to be able to go out on a date." "It must be nice to s nice to say, you know, once a week." But when we first moved here, all of our kids were itty bitties. And we had nobody. I mean no family here. We didn't know anyone when we moved here, but we still prioritized that. When the kids went to bed we had, you know, tea and brownies or something. We had a lot of cookies back then, now that I think about it.

Chad: Yeah, we did. I'd like to relive those days. Honestly, those, those are the good old days.

Amy: But it's just important, no matter what stage of life you're in as y young marrieds or young parents or maybe empty nesters, to prioritize. And it doesn't have to always look the same, because it will never look the same. But to prioritize what that looks like as a husband and wife spending time together.

Austin: Aw. I love it.

Rachel: That's amazing. And I appreciate that because, yeah, you're speaking to a all the generations of, like, no matter where you're at it's important to prioritize it, and there's always a way.

Amy: Always.

Rachel: There's always a way to prioritize your marriage. And I'm super thankful for that, that we have also always done that and tried to help couples even have the resources or the ideas or just the encouragement of, yeah, no, what you focus on, you get more of. And what you prioritize- God blesses. And so it's non-negotiable, because a lot of people will say, "Oh, well, our kids," and, you know, they just take a lot of our energy. Then, yeah, when kid when couples focus on their kids and then later they, they leave the house, then they're like, "Well, who are we?" "What are we doing?"

Chad: Like two strangers.

Rachel: Because the Yeah, they, they missed out on being together. And also, they didn't parent as well as they could have, because they didn't parent- Ab yes, absolutely from a place of a whole, happy, connected marriage.

Austin: Yeah. 'Cause we've been in that same, you know, boat as well, is we've done ministry and work together in our entire relationship. And so it's so easy to let that bleed over. You know? So, like on date nights, and we, we have an agreement that from dinner prep and on, there's no utility talk of any kind. So we don't talk about work. Don't talk about ministry. Don't talk about kids. Don't talk about bills. Don't talk about anything. It's the Lord, it's romance, it's what we're excited about. It's appreciating each other, it's celebrating wins. Because it's I don't think a lot of people, will know what this feels like unless they're actually in it. But really, when your life When you have that much going on together you can be laying in bed together, and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, my goodness." "Did you pray for so-and-so and so-and-so?" "Did you remember?" It's like, "Honey, we're in bed."

Rachel: I just got this text. Yeah.

Chad: Yo, yo, man. Oh, no, we do that. We will set

Rachel: All the time

Chad: A time. Like 6:00 PM, no more. Or sometimes when we're on a date night when we're leaving the house, it's like, okay, between here and I-49 get it all out.

Rachel: Once we hit the highway.

Chad: When we hit the highway, we're done.

Austin: Ge- Jesus.

Rachel: Ground rule.

Austin: I like it.

Chad: We're done. So it's like, brr.

Rachel: And it's, and it's not easy.

Chad: No, it's You know.

Rachel: It ha you have to be intentional.

Austin: It just slips in.

Rachel: Because it comes out.

Chad: It does.

Rachel: And you're like, "Oh, wait a minute. Forget it." "We'll talk about it later." We've done it so many times.

Chad: So many times.

Rachel: Late at night he's, you know, he's like, "Good night, babe." And I'm like, "Oh, wait, wait. Tomorrow."

Austin: Yeah. And actually, one of the things that we're gonna give, all the couples that come to the conference as a little bonus, it's called our check-in method.

Rachel: Ooh.

Austin: And it's, it's a worksheet that they use to do daily and weekly check-ins together. And it's part of how we actually mitigate a lot of that. So it's like, "Hey, do, do, do we need to talk about that now, or can we move it to our Sunday night meeting?" "Oh, you know what? Let's push that to the meeting so we can stay present." So, but the

Rachel: Mm-hmm, I love that Yeah

Austin: That's just a little tease for later.

Rachel: I love it. Yeah. I love it. It's so good.

Austin: It's a lot of fun.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So we wanna hear, we want our listeners to hear, and we want you guys to share, even just for us to hear what is the heart behind the Renewed Marriage Conference? Mm. So for you guys, you know, was there a moment or a pattern that you realized marriage needed focused attention in your church? Like, tell us why that's so important.

Chad: Yeah. Yeah. I'll just look at my notes, a little cheat sheet here, but there were really, I would say, four reasons. and the first one is just obvious to all of us, that marriage in recent years has been under absolute spiritual assault. I mean, full frontal spiritual assault. So you have that going on. The other thing, too, is that, you know, statistically, the rates are still the same. You know, divorce inside and outside the church. So there's that. That, that number's not moving. The other thing, too, is we just noticed on a weekly basis just the sheer number of prayer requests that were coming in for marriages. In fact, again, you can't make this stuff up. Just our last, what was it?

Rachel: Yep. Monday.

Chad: Monday staff meeting, the number of prayer requests that was, like, marriage, marriage, marriage marriage. And one of the staff members even just talked about the burden of praying for all of those needs. And then the timeliness of the conference. So there was that. And then, I think maybe just practically or even geographically, to my knowledge, again, now there, I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, there was nothing like that a renewed marriage conference in the Cass County area. And so people would have to drive maybe up north into the city, and I thought, "Let's just start providing something annually here." And it was a God-inspired thought. And then also, my wife and I, you know, we've done in the past, a, a marriage community group. So it's, it's, it's the big and the small. It's the annual event, but then it's also the opportunity for people to grow in their relationships. So I think really all four of those things combined. You know? And you can make a case for just about anything that's going on in the world and in society, and you can really go after that.

But it, we needed to he we needed to hear God say, "This is what we want you to go after."

Austin: Love it.

Chad: And it, it was clear. It was crystal clear.

Rachel: That's amazing. Mm-hmm.

Austin: I love that. Well, and you know, one thing we talk about a lot, 'cause we've worked with a lot of different churches, is I feel like we share this all the time. It's just that it still blows our minds a little bit that a lot of churches don't have a marriage ministry. You know? And so we have different products that different churches use, and that's all great and everything. And, but we really love when churches really want to make it a priority. Like a real legitimate priority where it's not an afterthought. You know, and I know all of you full-time pastors out there and part-time pastors, life is full and busy, and there's a million demands. See you, love you, have grace for you. All that. It's our belief, and I think it's your belief too that marriage ministry, it's non-negotiable. there has to be marriage ministry happening. And I realize it can be intimidating and all that, but but I'd love to know, so you guys have made it a priority.

You have this annual conference. You guys are, are have the small groups, all that. You know, so, what would you say 'Cause I think a lot of churches, they're just a little scared to start one- 'cause they're not sure what the can of worms could be like. So if you had something to say, like, to a church that was thinking about you know, having a marriage ministry like, what, what would you tell them, like?

Chad: Oh, man. Wow. I mean, I would say probably, first of all, I wouldn't start with a conference. I don't think that's where you begin.

Austin: For sure, for sure.

Chad: I think it all begins with, we'll just say, the pastor's heart and really getting a vision and a glimpse of God's intent and what the gospel says about this, and starting there. So content, you know, in preaching and teaching, you can begin to implement that more, you know, through illustrations. And then I think it's beginning with a community group. And it doesn't have to be, you know, the seven ways to fix a broken marriage. I mean, like there's even a community group that we have, it's just called Dating Your Spouse.

Austin: Yeah, love it.

Chad: And it's, like, one of our biggest community groups. And couples get together, and every night it's a different activity. And they'll go all You know, drive golf balls, and then they'll go

Amy: Aw

Chad: Do something else, and it's just teaching.

Amy: They love it.

Chad: They love it.

Amy: They love it.

Chad: Yeah. Just teach. So I think it just starts small. I think it always has to start with the heart. And then from there, I think it can go into community groups, and then pray about the concept of maybe an, an annual event or a larger you know, or a quarterly gathering. But I do. I think it just starts with the pastor, you know, catching the vision for that. And I think what was a little bit of a game changer for me h me here, too, around this topic is, is just seeing the marriage theme played out from Genesis to Revelation. You know, where it all began, and I've said this before, it didn't start with the cross. It didn't start with the Bible. It didn't start with a worship song. Didn't even start with a church. It literally started with a husband and wife. Right? Not even just a man and woman. The Bible is crystal clear, husband and wife.

Amy: Husband and wife.

Chad: Right? So the Lord officiated over the first wedding. So that's where it began. Like Genesis 1. And then you go all the way to Revelation 22, and it says, "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.'"

Amy: Chills. Mm-hmm.

Chad: It's these bookends.

Austin: Ah, the bookends.

Chad: And whether it's Old Testament or New Testament, there's this betrothal language, and He's the groom, and we're the bride. So when you start to see that it is truly fundamental to understanding the gospel and God's relationship with us, I mean, what is it called? The marriage supper of the lam marriage.

Rachel: That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Chad: This is not, you know, a peripheral topic in the scriptures. This is core

Austin: It's core. It's central

Chad: To understanding. And so, yeah, we've always said we want ministry to flow through our marriage.

Amy: Through.

Chad: Not, not around it. Not in spite of it. But, but right through. I'll just say one more thing here. I think it was, I heard Bill Bright, Campus Cr- Crusade for Christ who said, "The light that shines the farthest burns the brightest at home." And I love that. And so if we can just raise up, marriages that are burning bright that, that casts a light, in a long distance for the gospel. Shines bright.

Amy: And isn't that what we do as the church, right? We, we If, if it's not the church, then who is it that's building strong marriages, that's investing in marriages? Who else are we l who else are we looking to to be, be that person to encourage families? If, and if we have strong marriages we have a strong culture. If we have strong marriage we have strong societies. We have strong families, and then we're training, in a healthy home, our children, right, to go out into a world and to be the light because they've had that strength from home. It's just central. It's core. It should be Like, this is foundational. Your f your marriage is the foundation of how it all begins, right? And if the church isn't the answer to that, who is?

Chad: Yeah, the whole like, if it's not us, then who?

Amy: Then who?

Austin: Then who, yeah. If, if we're not there to meet the need, then a, another entity will.

Chad: Will, absolutely.

Amy: At, yes.

Rachel: Will, will most likely not point to the Lord. And

Chad: It's the whole idea of the universe in like a vacuum. Something's gonna fill it. So, hey, come on, church. Let's, let's fill that space.

Austin: Let's fill it.

Chad: Let's fill it. Love it.

Rachel: And that's so good. Like, we say the same thing. It's everything flows through our marriage. Like when our

Austin: First ministry.

Rachel: It is our first ministry. So for us, the priority is personal relationship with God. And then it's our marriage. Then our kids. Then everything else. That includes ministry. Like, our jobs are ministry. Like, your jobs are ministry. But if your marriage comes after ministry, and and sadly, this happens maybe by the, the good desire of some pastors'- or leaders' hearts. They think, "Oh, I'm helping. Oh, I'm serving. Oh, we're serving." But it, their marriage is kind of on the altar. And they sacrifice it.

Austin: It cannot be on the altar.

Chad: I'm telling you.

Rachel: And then that's why kids leave the church sometimes because they're it's this They're not, they're getting kind of, like, a hypocritical at home it's not what they're saying in public because they're not- Maybe they don't have the resource. Maybe they don't know, you know? Right, like we, we wanna assume that they just, it just happened. You know, they didn't know, they didn't have the resource, or their intentions were, "Oh, we're just serving the Lord." But, that's why I really appreciate you guys. Just it's evident. You know, like, we've, we've actually yet to have a couple on our podcast. We've had a lot of people ask. Nobody really knows, but

Austin: You guys are the first, couple on the podcast.

Rachel: It's so, like hopefully that speaks to like, just immediately when we first met you. We just knew. Like, we felt the Holy Spirit. We see your hearts. We love your leadership. And you know what you were saying about the church and the Bible and the weddings and the wed and the, the bride and groom. when you said that, in my mind I was like, "Yeah, we need that on the, on the podcast."

Chad: There we go.

Rachel: Because it's, people need to hear that.

Chad: They need to hear it.

Rachel: That's so true that God is all about marriage. And it is riddled throughout the Bible. And yeah, if we're not gonna focus on marriages, help lead marriages, help, you know, nurture that within the church, who is?

Chad: That is it. I love it. And I love that you guys, you know, you really do, you understand what success is. So it was probably, again, probably 30 years ago, just getting started in ministry, just getting started in marriage, and I don't know who this was. It was an interview with a pastor somebody who'd been married, you know, whatever, 50 years and been in ministry for 50 years. And the person asked this pastor, seasoned veteran pastor, "What's the definition of success?" "What's the definition of ministry success?" And didn't bat an eye. He said, "It's not having to look my wife and children in the eyes and say I was unfaithful."

Rachel: At the end of his life.

Chad: Chills.

Amy: Also chills. That is success.

Chad: Stayed with me. That is success. When you hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant," it's not just the calling but it's this relationship right here. And never having to look the children in the eyes and say, "I was unfaithful to your mother." That's what success is. Oh, my goodness. It was a game changer for me. Life changing.

Austin: Yeah, that's powerful. That is powerful. And I, I love that, too, because, and this is kind of some, you said, too, is that our authority- When we're teaching marriage, when we're teaching in front of the church our authority comes from what we do where no one else can see.

Amy: Behind closed doors.

Austin: So behind closed door, not in front of the church. You know, and so when, if we wanna have authority in speaking into other marriages

Chad: Come on

Austin: If this marriage is not coming first then no one's gonna take anything you say seriously anyways. And

Amy: They can feel it.

Austin: Yeah, they they can always feel it.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. You can feel.

Austin: I, I, I think authority comes from, of course, the Word of God, of course, the Holy Spirit, but I believe our felt sense of authority really comes from, like, do I live what I'm teaching? And a pastor And that's why I love what you said. You were like I said, "Where does it start in the church?" And you're like, "Well, it starts with the pastor's heart." And it's so true because if the pastor's heart is not right with his bride well, then, how can he teach with authority to his congregation?

Chad: Right, he can't do it.

Amy: Yes. Good point.

Austin: How, how can he teach with conviction? You know? It's kinda like

Chad: It's 100% true. It's gotta flow from a pure stream. And you have to have something to draw from. You know? You have to have a deep well. And whether it's you know, romance, friendship, covenant, ministry, relationship with the Lord, there has to be something. When you go down there There's gotta be something

Amy: To draw from. Absolutely.

Chad: And you're right. Your authority, anointing, wisdom, all of those things come from that place. Yeah. Man, I love it.

Amy: We also heard it said- And, it, this could go with so many different analogies. But, with the marriage analogy, we also heard another pastor years ago, we were at a staff retreat or something. And oh, my goodness, he just, he just kept dropping so many truth bombs on us. We're like, "Oh, my goodness." What was the quote that he had said? do you know who I'm talking about?

Chad: Was it drinking from your spirit?

Amy: That, that people drink from your spirit. Love that. And we, we don't even have to necessarily stand up there every Sunday and say- "Marriage is important."

Austin: Yeah, right, yeah, that's right.

Amy: But you, just talking about the well- Mm it, it just, that reminded me that people- Mm are drinking from our spirits. Yeah. People are drinking from, do we have a healthy relationship? Or are we just saying it, right? Or are we living it? And I think people really drink from that deep well of your spirit, and it's so important to take the time. And I love that we're talking about all the things. You know, we could give all these practical advice. Like you said, you're gonna give this resource. It takes all the things, doesn't it?

Austin: All of it.

Amy: It takes, it takes those resources. It takes intentionality. It takes, it takes all of the things to make a marriage work. It's so important.

Austin: And I, you know, that's why the core of our brand is heart, soul, mind, strength. Because all, if, if we want all four of those to love the Lord our God, then all four of those areas of our life need to be nurtured. They need to be understood. They need to be You know, like you, said on Sunday when you closed one of your prayers in the services it was that, in your benediction, about heart, soul, mind, strength. And that just brought me joy, 'cause I'm like, you know, we need all of it. We need our minds attuned to, to, to the Lord, our hearts attuned, our emotions, everything. And our spirit is the part that communes with the Holy Spirit. You know? And so it's like when you s when you talk about people drink from your spirit the part of them that c communes with the Holy Spirit. Like, that's, and that's why, you know it, it kills me when we, we just hear s you know, we get a lot of stories.

We get a lot of emails. A lot of people reaching out. And how many times, a marriage, there's either a moral failure or something went by the wayside. And it's, a lot of it's pastors. A lot of it's people under high pressure that don't have support. You know, and they're ignoring two or three parts of their

Chad: Goodness

Austin: Their life, you know? and sometimes it's for the sake of ministry. You know? And,

Amy: Yeah, yeah. Heartbreak.

Austin: The, the Yeah. But once they realize, I, I l- I'm, I'll never forget that quote. That is so good, that you won't have to look your kids and your wife in the eye and say, "I'm sorry that I

Chad: I was

Austin: Put something in front of you."

Chad: You know, it's, you, you really do. You, you take a lifetime, it takes a lifetime to build something. It takes a minute to tear it all down.

Amy: Yes. Yeah, to tear it down.

Chad: One second

Amy: Yes. A second

Chad: To tear the whole thing down. And that's just, in one sense, the cruelty of the universe, if you will. Or the nature of it. Or the consequences. Or the reality of it, but that's just the way it is. You know? David, on the, on the ledge, just

Amy: Yep. Gotta be on your guard

Chad: One look.

Austin: One look.

Amy: One look.

Chad: One look. And so never letting your guard down. That's just the way it is. Always being able to stand your ground, always being ready, you know, to give a defense, always, Ephesians 6, the full armor of God. Like, there's just no letting down. And that's just the way it is. But once you begin to live in that parameter it's like, oh, that's where the freedom actually is.

Amy: Yes. Mm-hmm. Freedom and boundaries.

Chad: It's the building of the boundaries that creates the freedom that the joy comes from. You know what I mean? It's that whole drink water from your own well. Like it says, in the Proverbs. You know, that's, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, that's a freeing thing. That's actually not a, not a restricting thing.

Austin: I love it.

Chad: Yeah. Man, I don't even know where we are.

Austin: I don't know where we are either.

Amy: This is good.

Chad: Did we just toss this to the wind? This is amazing.

Austin: Where are we at, Rach? 'Cause we could just, we could talk all day long.

Amy: Oh, yeah. Smart.

Chad: Ground us here.

Austin: Let's just keep the good times rolling.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

Austin: All right. Good, good.

Chad: Ground us.

Amy: So let's hear from you guys, from your perspective as pastors. What happens in a church when marriages are healthy? And, and kinda, you can contrast that to what happens when marriages aren't.

Chad: You wanna go?

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I think healthy marriages create healthy churches. I think when you have a healthy marriage and you're, you're investing in marriages, you're investing in families, I think you'll see a lot more health in your church family. Because you're giving, like I said, the foundation of what really matters. Yeah. And that's the family, that's the home, that's the marriage. And I think when you have healthy homes, healthy families, healthy marriages- Mm then I think you have a healthy church. Oh, yeah. And I think that- There's so much strength in a church where their marriages are healthy. It's a strong church. It's a strong church.

Chad: Yeah, I think too, you know, I, marriage in my mind is, is a mirror. The intention there is for it to mirror the ultimate reality which is the groom

Amy: The groom

Chad: And the bride. And I just, I get a kick out of it all the time. I read, you know, in Ephesians where Paul is talking about husbands, wives, husbands, wives husbands, wives. And, and I wr- I wrote the quote down. Let me just pull this up. But he's like, "The mystery is great. I'm speaking with reference to Christ and the church." And just when you think you got your mind right, he's like, "You know what?"

Austin: You're like

Chad: "Not really talking about that." "I'm just talking about Christ and the church." Talking about a Wait, what? I gotta back up now. Well, of course it is because marriage in a sense is a shadow. That's why Jesus was so clear, like in heaven there's no marriage because it gives way to the greater reality, the greater truth. And so when marriages are healthy, when marriages are biblical, when they are godly, they serve as a mirror that reflects the ultimate reality. And when they are broken, when they are fractured, it's comparable to looking into a broken mirror. It just doesn't represent it well. And so I think that, what Amy said, the church is healthy. I think the reflection is healthy. And I think the third thing there is that part of the intent of marriage, and Lord willing, is having children, is those children now becoming a godly heritage. A place where those kids are raised. And the Bible says, I think it's the King James, but to, to raise those children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, that's our responsibility.

So again that even begins to break down when a couple begins to pursue other means for health other than the scriptures and how God said like, "This is how this should go."

Rachel: And we only get one shot. Like, it's our job to steward souls. I mean, if we chose to be parents or it happened, like the Lord anointed that soul to be in our stewardship. And we only get one shot, and that's one thing I really appreciate from you, Austin. As the leader in our marriage, a lot of times you're like, "Rachel, this, there's a lot at stake." "You gotta really think about how you want to respond here."

Chad: Oh, man.

Rachel: And especially if the kids are in the room or anything it's like, no, you're right. Like, I am a witness of Christ to my children. And I'm a witness of what I say is truth, what I say is right, what I say I do in the home, and it is so true. What happens behind closed doors, like

Chad: That's our authority. Yeah

Rachel: That's what our kids, like that's what they live with.

Chad: That's exactly right. Yeah, exactly.

Rachel: And with us, as people who help couples, grow through childhood trauma it c it's everything that affects marriages. So even we're equipping the next generation of marriages as we are modeling, as we are teaching, and, and really breaking generational curses. And yeah, in Jesus' name, just choosing a different path for our kids.

Austin: You know, we say this a lot, and this'll be another little foreshadow to the conference, but, you know, your marriage is a ministry. And it's the greatest ministry you have. Because, you know, someone could have any ol any other kind of ministry or any other kind of success and all those things. And, that's, all that's great, but if you cannot love and honor your spouse privately, publicly- I, I'm not really that impressed with anything else.

Chad: I 100% agree.

Amy: The fruits of the Spirit are absolutely

Austin: If we are trying to make heaven crowded and we are trying to make disciples of all nations our marriage is gonna be the most powerful. Like you said, it's a mirror to the ultimate ultimate marriage of Christ and the church. And no one's gonna want to know what you believe, who you believe in, and why you believe it if you can't love and honor your spouse. You know, if, if, if someone actually digs into Christian systematic theology, they're gonna figure out pretty quick how important marriage is. So if we're trying to preach the gospel and yet, like, this is not right they're not gonna wanna even know what you believe anyways.

Chad: It goes back to what we talked about, you know, marriage was so central to the creation story. Okay? So if it was so central to the creation story, then it is central to our story. Because the creation story was marriage. And then that same thing that, again, you only get one shot. Ev every day is another page being turned. And it is central to the story that God is writing. And, you know, this idea, I read a, a book years ago, I think it was called The Making of a Leader, and it talks about the concept of convergence. That faithfulness over the decades leads to a place where things begin to converge in the life of a leader. And I believe the same thing is true in a marriage. There gets a, to a place, and we've known couples like this, when they get, you know, 70 years married, and it's like they don't even need to say anything. Their marriage is the message, right?

Just the, the, you drop 70 and it's like, okay. Got it. Like, the one, the one flesh thing has happened.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the

Chad: Like, the morphing has com completed You know?

Austin: Oh, my goodness. And ex that's it. That's like, yep, it has converged and their marriage is the message. So along the way, yeah, our marriage needs to be the message- 'cause it flows, it flows through, not around. I, I, I love that. And that would bring me to my next question, which is for the couple listening today and this could just, this could be for the, you know, the value of the podcast, but also for those who would listen to this and hopefully come to the conference. You know, for anyone that's thinking, "We're fine"- why should they invest in their marriage? You know, even before a crisis or why should they invest in their marriage, period? Even if they're sitting there thinking, "Well- Pastor Chad, Pastor Amy, Austin, and Rachel, you know, we're fine. We're okay." why should they still go ahead and invest in their marriage?

Amy: Mm-hmm, yeah. I think, when I think about us as individuals, we're always growing, right? We're always morphing, right? Evolving into I'm not the same person he married 21 years a or when I was 21. Oh, no.

Chad: No, it's 31. 31.

Austin: 31.

Amy: I meant to say when I was 21.

Chad: Okay, okay, okay. Hey, I remember when you was 31.

Amy: When I was 21

Chad: I had it

Austin: 21, all right

Amy: 31 years ago

Austin: We'll let that one slide

Chad: Okay. We'll, we'll give it to you. Give it to you. Now, I don't know, but

Amy: I mean, I am only 25 now, but, you know

Austin: Exactly true. Yep. That's right.

Amy: I'm not the same person. I- I, like, I am not the same person, and if I was back then saying, "Oh, we have a great relationship," you, five years in, "Oh, we have a great relationship. We're fine." Now that I'm in my 50s It's like, I'm not the same person I was. And if, if I'm growing as an individual, man, I also need to be growing together with my husband because we're two individuals that are growing in our relationship with the Lord but we need to also grow in relationship together, and how important that is to, to recognize that you sow into something and then you reap the harvest of that. so it, you could be sowing some really great things, or you could be sowing some really yucky stuff. What are we choosing to sow and to grow into? Because there's gonna be a time where you're gonna have to pull from that harvest, right? You're gonna have to pull from that harvest. Yeah.

Chad: That's Yeah, I think you were either cheating or we must be married- 'cause that, that's kinda what I had here. I, I mean, honestly

Rachel: They're morphing. Yeah.

Chad: Yeah, they're morphing.

Austin: They're converging.

Chad: Converging is happening.

Austin: Converging is happening.

Rachel: You're watching it before your eyes.

Austin: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, gosh.

Chad: You should

Austin: You just reminded me of a couple Star Trek episodes.

Chad: Oh, you know, when you you merge. Yeah. That's, that's another episode.

Austin: That's another one. Yep.

Chad: I do think the first thing is, warning. I mean, the Bible says, you know, "Take heed-" "lest you fall." So again, I know it's a hypothetical question but I, I do hear a little bit of pride in there. I mean, I just, woo, I'd never wanna get to the place where you're always like, or you're, "Man, I'm fine. I'm fine," you know? But just this idea that the future has to be prepared for. And we're almost rebuked in the Proverbs when it says, "Hey, take a look at the ants." "They've got this figured out."

Austin: They've got it.

Chad: "They're storing up for the future." And switching kind of metaphors and parables, I think about what Jesus said about the foolish virgins and the wise virgins. What made the ones wise is they prepared for the future and made sure they had resources. When the moment arrived, they had something to pull from.

Rachel: They were ready. Yeah.

Chad: The foolish ones did not prepare for the future. And weddings, marriages, all of it's the same way. Let's just, let's just go with it. Let's just say you are fine. That's great. But I'm telling you, there's gonna be a day when you're not fine. And when you're not fine what are you going to be looking Are you gonna be trying to borrow oil from somebody else's you know, lamp? Or have you prepared for the day when the crisis arrives? And like you said so well, it is a sowing and reaping thing. What Even if you're in a time of harvest, praise God what are you still sowing

Austin: Keep sowing

Chad: Even while you're in a time of harvest? And that just prepares for the future.

Austin: Always sowing.

Chad: Always sowing.

Rachel: Like, for us, it's, right, we're continually being sanctified. So till the day- I die, I'm never gonna be like Christ. Like, I want to be, and I want to, as best as I can model him live like him, be like him, you know, have his Holy Spirit dwell in me, but I'm still a human. And so- I'm always going to be growing, investing learning, never stopping. So even, you know, I could say, "Oh, we're fine. We're so great. We're better than ever." We hear that a lot. "Better than ever."

Chad: Better than ever, yeah.

Rachel: But it's like, yeah, but there's the next level. And we have this T-shirt, it's called Levels Above Levels, and it's got these mountains on it. And that's one of our sayings within CCM, is like, yeah, we are taking everyone, all of us

Chad: I love it

Rachel: Levels above levels

Austin: Yeah, levels above levels

Rachel: Because there's more levels, and the the ceiling, there's no glass ceiling- .. to how good your marriage can get. Even if it's awesome, right?

Austin: Yeah. Well, and, and think about this, it's like Christ came so that we could have life and have it abundantly. Right? And we work with a lot of people on understanding, like, what is the abundant life? And, and our definition, our working definition of the abundant life is to experience the highest levels of success in all areas of life while remaining fully obedient and fully reliant on God. I believe that's what everybody is- I mean, if you think about being an heir to the kingdom- I really believe, like, in, in that sonship that we have, I believe that we're all, we all have access to that. You know, levels above levels above levels above levels in every area of our life so long as we are fully dependent, fully reliant on God. And I want couples to get to experience what we have. I want them to experience what you guys have, because because, you know, again, the divorce rate's 50% in and out of the church, you know, for the, for really the most part.

And, you know, sometimes I d- I'm just like, "People, I just want you to, I want you to win." "I want you to experience-" "what this t type of love and relationship is like." So there's, we feel a lot of urgency in that because, like, I do believe time is running out. I do believe the clock is ticking. Like, you know, Forrest Frank said it best, you know when he said,

Rachel: "Jesus is coming back soon."

Austin: Yeah, right there. Yeah, that's right.

Rachel: You know, you

Amy: Do you wanna be on my worship team?

Chad: Yeah. Wow. That was an audition.

Rachel: I said it.

Austin: Oh, that was great. Okay. All right.

Chad: I like, though, how you passed it to her for that part.

Amy: Yeah, I just wanted to heat her up.

Chad: Okay. Yeah. You

Austin: She's the better singer of the pair.

Rachel: I, I keep going.

Austin: I can sing okay as long as I'm singing with her or another great singer, you know.

Chad: Hey, well, wait till the after party at the conference. That's

Rachel: Don't give too much away.

Chad: I, I'm not gonna say too much, but

Austin: Oh, we got karaoke. Let's go. Oh, good. Well, that, that, that's exciting. Well, l last big question here is just, just, just simply here. if you could cast a vision for what the church looks like when the church really, the big C Church takes a proactive prioritized position on investing in marriages and making that an unconditional thing in ministry, what's that vision look like in the church, when the church really doubles down and says, "No more. We are focusing on marriages-" "no matter what"? What does it look like?

Chad: I mean, I think probably going back to what I said, the reflection becomes clearer. I think that's the first thing. As people look at us, they see him. As people look into our marriages, they see Christ. I think that's the first thing. The second thing is just- We underestimate the power of unity so much. Oh, my goodness. This idea even in the Old Testament, like when, when brethren, when, when, when we live in unity together it's like the oil, the blessing is commanded. It's spoken. And when a husband and wife are on the same page and they're living in unity not just about their careers and how to raise children but in the Lord- Oh, I believe that God commands a blessing. And that's the vision. Imagine a church filled with people where the Lord has commanded blessings. You know, we talked about this on Sunday, but the word blessing in Greek is eulogao. That is to eulogize, to speak well of. And just imagine a congregation where the Lord is eulogizing blessing

Austin: Constantly

Chad: And speaking well of those marriages because they are so unified. He, he commands the blessing. So I, I see, I see a blessed church. You know? I see a blessed church.

Austin: I love that.

Chad: And I see a church that's just unstoppable. I mean, I really do, just a force to be reckoned with. You know, humble warriors. You know? Just exhibiting God's intent.

Rachel: I mean, there's a reason why marriages are under attack. If they weren't important they wouldn't be under attack.

Austin: If they weren't a threat.

Rachel: If they weren't a threat.

Austin: If they weren't

Rachel: They're a threat

Austin: The ultimate point of leverage you know then, they'd be left alone.

Rachel: You know a as we're sitting here, too, I, I've gotta be honest with you, my heart is really going out. To couples, you're watching this and you're like, "I want that." "I want that." And it feels hopeless. But God is in the business of hope. And he wants to restore, and he wants to redeem. And he wants to make new. And- God gives us everything we need, right?

Chad: Yes, he does.

Rachel: And I know probably for some who are listening to this, they're, they're like, "Well, I don't know how that's ever possible." But with God. But with God all things are possible. There's always hope for you. There's always hope for your marriage, so don't give up.

Chad: Come on.

Rachel: It was just burning so deeply

Austin: Jesus

Rachel: In me.

Chad: Come, let's go.

Rachel: I just- I just believe someone's gonna be watching this.

Chad: Well, that's the gift of faith right there. That's what people just experienced, the gift of faith expressing itself. And so some somebody was touched by that.

Austin: I agree.

Rachel: Yeah. Well, as you were talking, I was like, yeah. I s- I, I just kept saying in my head, like, "I speak it in the name of Jesus-" "over Hope City Church," like and over this conference that that marriages will be strengthened. And you said all kinds of great things that I won't repeat. But, like yes in Jesus' name, let it be so that you know, marriages are strengthened. And, and I believe, like, our desire is that a lot of pastors hear this and are inspired. And, and y you know it's like we're here today, all of us are here today because somebody said something awesome, that we learned, that we, you know, of, of course, because of Christ. But we have implemented things and even had ideas because of someone else's obedience to speak the truth that God revealed to them. And then that inspired them to do something. So- I'm praying over this episode that a lot of people, marriages, and also leaders will step up, in their church or

Chad: Come on

Rachel: You know, as pastors or as people, like, "Hey, I wanna start a small group," a marriage small group. Or I love the date night thing. Just date your spouse. Like, this can be simple. You know?

Chad: That's just so good. Again, I, I just feel like going probably all the way back to one of the first questions where so many leaders and pastors get stuck, is we just feel like we have to have all the answers. And until I have it all figured out and I have all the answers, like, I'm not gonna do this. A all God needs is someone just to say yes.

Austin: Yes. D yeah.

Chad: You're not an owner anyway. Like, you're a steward.

Austin: Just renting.

Chad: You're just passing through here. So yeah, sometimes it is ready, fire, aim. Like, we can't, we can't do everything, but we can do something. So that's it. What's the something that you can do?

Rachel: Mm, let's go.

Chad: And do that

Rachel: What's the something?

Chad: Something.

Rachel: Thank you.

Chad: And then just let God breathe on that. And then just watch what God does with it, you know?

Rachel: Less is so much more.

Chad: Less is so

Rachel: So many times

Chad: Much more.

Austin: 100%. Well

Chad: Oh, my goodness.

Austin: I, yeah, I, I love this. I, um Man, we could just go forever. So let's, let's do this. Let's, let's kinda get into the zone of wrapping up here. But, would you guys give the listeners, give them just a quick overview of the Renewed Marriage Conference. Like, what's going on? What, what are you gonna be doing?

Chad: Oh, my goodness.

Austin: What, what you can share. I know there's some gated information. You know?

Rachel: Super secret stuff.

Austin: That you gotta, that you gotta sign up to get there.

Rachel: You have to be there. Yeah.

Austin: February 27, 28. Harrisonville, Missouri. Hope City Church.

Chad: Man, oh.

Austin: But just tell Yeah, like, like, what can they expect?

Chad: I mean, honestly, we really try to put so much into a short amount of time. I mean, I will tell you there's just going to be a lot of laughs. We love the Lord. We love one another. We love what God is doing. The Bible says- "The joy of the Lord is our strength." So there's just gonna be We're gonna have a lot of fun. The content with the Holt family is going to be absolute

Rachel: So exciting

Chad: Second to none. And the fact that they're right here in our backyard- Cass County folks, God's country. So that connection right there is amazing. So just the content you're gonna receive. and then third of all, it really is, it is an investment in your life, in your marriage. And that is so critical. And regardless of whether you are living your best life now or whether you're hanging on by a thread- I'm confident that because it's biblical teaching it will apply to wherever you are. So whether you, you're, you know, 50 years of marriage or it's five weeks, I'm just telling you there really is something for everyone. You will grow, benefit, and I think we'll probably share this at the conference. But, but don't lean back, lean in. That's kind of the phrase that God, G- God gave me. Like, lean in and just go after everything that God has for you. It's a short amount of time, but the further you lean in, the more that you're gonna receive and the more that you're gonna take away, and that's, that's our heart.

Rachel: I, I'm signing up. I'm coming.

Chad: Good. I love it.

Rachel: I'll be there.

Austin: Will you guys be there? We'll be there.

Rachel: Okay, perfect.

Austin: Yeah, we will

Rachel: Perfect.

Austin: Contractually, we will be there.

Chad: Contractually.

Austin: Technically, I mean, yeah, we'll be there. But guys

Chad: Oh, man

Austin: Pastor Chad, Pastor Amy, thank you, guys.

Chad: Oh, you're welcome.

Austin: For,

Chad: This is awesome

Austin: Just the fun and the discussion.

Rachel: So fun.

Austin: And the rawness and and I mean, this is stuff worth talking about.

Chad: It's so good.

Austin: You know?

Chad: Yeah, appreciate you guys.

Austin: And there's a lot of things we could talk about. And we probably will, 'cause it's fun. I, we just happen to believe that marriage is the ultimate lever that we can pull you know for, for the Kingdom of God and for our own families, and, and like you said, for being a mirror, you know?

Chad: A mirror. That's it.

Austin: We love because He first loved us. And I don't just say that because it's the, the Christian T-shirt scripture. I really believe it, that, how could we not? You know? Like, when we're overwhelmed by God's love, how could we not let it overflow

Chad: Come on

Austin: Out of the abundance of our heart? And, and so we just thank you guys you know, for being with us today, and

Rachel: Thank you for having us. So fun.

Austin: Truly, how fun. It's gonna be a great conference.

Chad: Let's go.

Austin: So, so for all of you listening today, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Conscious Christian Marriage podcast. it's just been a blessing to get to hang out with these incredible people, and we really encourage you if you're in the Kansas City area or willing to drive in

Rachel: Or if you could fly in

Austin: Fly in. A and if you do, let us know, and we'll try to hang out with you or something. But, we would love for you to come to the Renewed Marriage Conference, and, it's gonna Again, Hope City Church, Harrisonville, Missouri. We'll put a link down below that's got all the information where you could sign up or learn more about the event or learn more about Hope City Church. And so thank you again for watching today, tuning in, and, we love you, we appreciate you, and we pray for you all the time. And may God bless you and your marriage and your family.