3 Reasons Why Focusing on the Self Is Essential to Being Led by the Spirit

Transcribed from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are automated and may occasionally be off.

Rachel: Welcome to the Conscious Christian Marriage podcast, where faith meets psychology to equip growth-minded Christian couples to elevate every aspect of their heart, soul, mind, and strength. We're your hosts, Austin and Rachel Holt, and today we're going to talk about three reasons why focusing on the self is essential to being led by the Spirit. Oh. Who knew?

Austin: So be sure you listen all the way through the episode because at the end of the episode we're gonna have a very special nonprofit shout-out and also a very special takeaway, which, is like a big action item, and if you actually do that action item, your life and your marriage are going to get better.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so we would love to hear from you. If you are watching or listening on YouTube, take a second and comment. We'd love to know where you're from and how you found yourself on this podcast. And we wanna know this because we want to get to know you, but we also really like surprising random listeners.

Austin: Yeah, sometimes we just take random comments, and we'll message them and then get their address and, like, mail them stuff or send them free things through our website. So make sure you drop a comment below because if you drop a comment below, it might just be the best decision you ever make in your entire life. Who knows? Maybe, maybe we'll give you something crazy for free just for fun. Just

Rachel: A Lambo, did you say?

Austin: Yeah, a Lambo.

Rachel: No, just kidding.

Austin: That's an earlier episode. You gotta tithe enough to get the Lambo.

Rachel: Without further ado, we are going to dive in in the for fashion and form that we always do here at CCM and do appreciations.

Austin: All right, Rachel, what do you appreciate about me today?

Rachel: I super appreciate your leadership. And that you never quit. You never stop showing up with integrity, with love, and with grace, and that's really blessed me in many, many ways for many, many years. So thank you.

Austin: First of all, I appreciate you for how white your teeth are. Like, I was just kind of distracted. I was staring at your teeth. I was like, "When did her teeth get so white?" I mean, they're always white, but I was like, "Wow," like, "They're really white." so I appreciate that about you. But, the biggest thing that's coming from me right now is just how consistently I find you in the mornings having quiet time with God, and our kids also find you in the mornings having quiet time with God, and that means the world to me. And another thing I appreciate, and, I could just go on and on about this, but I just really appreciate, and I appreciate that you see this in me, but it's also in you, is that you have this relentless desire, to grow, to be transformed continuously into the woman that God has already created you to be and simultaneous to calling simultaneously calling you to further step into every day. no matter how much it hurts, no matter what you have to talk about, dig up, go through, heal, work out, forgive, finish, close loops on, all the things.

But I just really appreciate that despite a lot of challenges that you've gone through, early in your life and as an adult, you have also continued to show up and be a great leader and a great inspiration to a lot of women, and the couples that we work with in CCM. So I'm really thankful that I get to be your husband, and, I think you're a rock star.

Rachel: Thank you. I will shake to that.

Austin: Love it.

Rachel: I receive it.

Austin: Okay. So everyone, today, this episode is going to be our last episode in our series on mutual exclusives. And, I'm really excited because this might be the best episode of mutual exclusives, honestly. because I think it's something that is just kind of plagued in the Church right now, and I think it's been plagued in the Church with a good motive behind it. Okay?

Rachel: For sure.

Austin: Which is just helping people have a healthy view of themselves, a healthy view of God and just how to be the best Christian they can be. And we're just gonna help people maybe see a slightly different kind of path to the value that's presented in that. We'll talk more about that later. But it's just a really good episode, and it's really good content because I think by understanding this, like, if we could produce the best generation of Christians we've maybe ever had, second to, like, the f the early Church, you know? like the first like Pentecost season of Christians, you know, like when the, when the Church was built. If we could really wrap our heads around this concept, because I, I think it's the key to actually not only people having amazing marriages but to really advancing the kingdom of God. So but this series has been on mutual exclusives. If you're just now, joining in, we have a bunch of episodes, before this one, so go check those out.

But basically, a mutual exclusive is this idea that two things can't be true at the same time. That's what a mutual exclusive is. And so this series is on debunking some really common mutual exclusives that if we debunk those things, it's gonna really bring blessing and increase to your life and to your marriage. And so today's mutual exclusive is you can't be focused on yourself and be a Christian, or you can't be focused on yourself and fully obey God. There's lots of different ways to say it. But what's preached a lot is, you know, you're going to harm yourself and your faith and everything else in your life if you focus on yourself at all. You just need

Rachel: Like, that's

Austin: To focus on God

Rachel: Selfish.

Austin: Yeah, like that's selfish to focus on yourself. And so maybe you've heard it as you need to be more selfless and God-full. or you don't need to know more about yourself. You just need to know more about God. Or you don't need to pay attention to yourself. You don't need to be focused on yourself. You just need to just lean into God, and that's it. That's kind of the old story. That's maybe the way you've heard it. And the new story that we want to urge you to consider is the more I become self-aware and self-controlled, the more I can actually be Spirit-led. Okay? And another version of that story is the more that I can, I can focus on nurturing my heart, soul, mind, and strength and simultaneously be fully led by God, by the Holy Spirit. That I can do both of those things at the same time, and that those two things actually go hand in hand Okay, we like to use this whole chicken-egg, egg-chicken analogy around here- 'cause one, we live on a farm and we have chickens, and it's kinda funny.

Rachel: Bok-bok.

Austin: Bok-bok. Bok-bok. Yeah, and it's kinda funny too, the whole egg thing. like our kids drop eggs all the time. I don't know why. In and outside of the house. It's just like

Rachel: Or crush them while washing.

Austin: Or j or just crush them while washing. It's just great. but, yeah, we, we like the idea of egg-chicken, chicken-egg because, you know, sometimes as Christians we want to see things as, well, was it the egg first or the chicken first? Sometimes, and I think this is the way God works in a lot of things, it's both. You know? And that's the whole point of this series is when people speak in these extremes sometimes of it's either this or that, usually that means they're either in a persona or they're teaching from a place of fear. They don't know how to find the integration. Now, we believe in black and whites, like don't get us wrong.

Rachel: For sure.

Austin: But there's a lot of things that people can't fully understand the depth and character of God until they're willing to see that there's a lot of things that do exist at the same time. And for the sake of this episode, it's understanding that you can be fully reliant on God. You can be fully And, and I'll, I'll b- I'll, I'll go forward then back up here. But this is one of the core tenets of what we believe a conscious Christian is, is that you can be self-controlled and spirit-led, and that those two things go hand-in-hand. And you will see as we get through this episode why we believe that, and why after working with countless people who we believe are really out there advancing the Kingdom of God and their marriages they also believe this and they've seen it to be true. So today we're gonna share with you three reasons, okay, why focusing on the self is essential to being led by the Spirit.

Rachel: Yeah. So number one, you can't be self-controlled if you don't know anything about yourself, right? So we talk about the fruits of the Spirit, right? The very last one is self-control. And so how can you be self-controlled if you don't know yourself? How could you control something that you don't actually know?

Austin: Yeah, it's like in it's like any number of things, you know? If you don't know anything about a car, how could you drive it? If you don't know anything about a tool, how could you actually use it? You know, and just thinking very practical about, like, our day-to-day lives in the ways that, like, like for example, the five love languages, which is like the typical Christian's, you know, maybe one of their top go-tos on a book or a strategy on how to increase in their marriage. It's like, guys, I hate to break this to you, but your love languages are knowing yourself. Like, you can't know your love language, how to give or receive, unless you know yourself. And when you take the five love language test, you're focusing on yourself.

Rachel: Yeah. And

Austin: That's what you're actually doing. You're learning about yourself. Now, I, I also want to point out an important distinction. We'll go right back to this. In terms of psychology, self is more at the center of multiple models of the psyche, okay? So we're gonna use the term a little bit interchangeably today, just to help kinda bring some clarity to some things. But in the traditional sense in psychology, the idea of self is really at the center of our psyche. and so we're not gonna go too much into self and personas and stuff like that. But, but to focus on the self in, in a practical sense is how we show up in the world, how we know ourself how we, interact with people. How

Rachel: Operate think, function.

Austin: How we interact with God. But also the self is how I interact with me. And if I don't know how I interact with me, I'm not gonna know how I interact with you, and I'm not gonna know how I interact with God. Because if I don't know myself well enough, I may not know the difference between myself and God. So if I know nothing about me and I have no idea how I operate, how do I even know sometimes when God's speaking to me or it's me speaking to me? So when someone tells you, "Don't ever listen to yourself. Don't ever focus on yourself. Don't ever work on yourself," I think they mean well. And what they're actually saying is, "Hey, you know, at the expense of other people, don't be selfish." And, and I think in cer certain respects or maybe most respects, I would agree with that. Okay? But it's just like when you're on an airplane, and what do they say about when the masks fall out?

Rachel: You take care of yourself first. Yep.

Austin: You take care of yourself first, so then you can take care of the people around you. When I went through my lifesaving certification, we always said, "Reach, throw, row, go with support," because the most important life when you're saving other people is yours 'cause there's two lives involved. Okay? So the idea, and I don't think the Church always means this when they teach this, that focusing on you is bad or is evil or is sinful. I, I hope they don't really mean that. I hope what they're just saying is, "Hey, don't be selfish. Think about other people. Love other people." Like, walk as the way Jesus walked. But what we're here to say is that you might be missing a lot of power, a lot of authority, a lot of opportunities by not knowing the inner workings of yourself. Because again, from a psychology perspective, the self is at the center of our psyche, and if you don't know it, then you don't know yourself.

So then every interaction you have with everyone around you, especially your spouse, will be completely skewed. And as we're gonna talk later in the episode, the chief principle way people come to know God is through the Church, which means it's through you and the relationships you build with people. And if the conduit of a relationship is not quality because you're not quality, they may not even get a chance to come in the doors. So anyways, but back to the five love languages. The five love languages, that's a great example of knowing thyself so that I can know what kind of love I like and what kind of love I best give and what kind of best, what kind of love I best receive.

Rachel: Yeah. And just like that awareness is really important, on the other end of the spectrum, being aware of your triggers. If you're not aware of your triggers and the areas that you need healing and growth then you'll blindly stumble on other people. You'll blindly, honestly get upset with other people when really it's something that's going on with you 'cause you're not aware of how you're feeling, what you're thinking, maybe how you're projecting onto other people. And so, yeah, it can come up very it might be running the shots more than you think.

Austin: Yeah. And

Rachel: Subconsciously

Austin: Another interesting thought is If you don't even know what your triggers are, how do you take those to God? And what if God calls you to focus on being better and healing your stuff, and He tells you to focus on yourself? Is it a sin if you focus on yourself? Right? So how many times, you know, do we say to God, "God, I want you to heal me," and then I think sometimes God's like, "What do you want me to heal you of?" It's like y you need to do some thinking, Austin. Like, hey, Austin, like, if you're having a hard time in relationships and you feel insecure and people don't wanna be your friend because you're kind of obnoxious to be around, maybe you need to do some thinking. "Okay, well, God, will, w will you reveal in me what's going on?" So then what do I do? I close my eyes, I pray, I meditate, I go, "Okay, God, what do you need to reveal in me that I, I want healing around so that I can be a better friend?"

That's God helping us work on ourself. Again, I think when the Church teaches this, I think they're just mis-wording things in a way, because I think the Church gets this idea. I, I, I do. I think the Church understands the power of self-reflection. But if they don't, this is the wake-up call. Like, self-reflection is the key to change, and the Holy Spirit calls us to self-reflect. I mean, look all over- Psalms and Proverbs is self-reflection. And the other, the other thing that's really interesting about this first point is that you can be self-controlled and Spirit-led. Again, this is a core tenet. If you're, if you're in our program, if you wanna become a conscious Christian and you wanna be like a conscious Christian and, and that kinda thing, one of the things you're gonna learn from us is one of our core statements, and this is, like, where we really launch everything from, is self-controlled, Spirit-led, okay? Galatians 5:20, self-controlled. And here's the thing. We are in control.

God is also in control, and that's part of hu humanity's problem is we try to have this kinda cosmic power struggle with God. But ultimately, we are in control. So when a Christian says, "Well, I'm not in control, God's just in control of my life," that is just not true. Because God can exert control over anything He wants. Like, right now, God can, God

Rachel: And He does

Austin: And He does. He does it all the time. But God right now is fully in control of you and I. He could stop me from speaking, He could stop me from breathing if He wanted to right now. My control is that I choose to be led by God. I choose to inquire that the Holy Spirit will lead me. I choose to go to church. I choose to read the Bible. And these are all responses based on conviction. But ultimately, we are in control. And until we are willing to realize we are in control, then we will, not do what needs to be done to control ourselves.

Rachel: Yeah. It's like a scapegoat. Kinda like

Austin: It's always a

Rachel: The Devil made me do it. Oh, you know, this in my head. But it's also like, well, yeah, you know, God's in control. If bad things happen, people say that. But it's like, how about we look at how you came to experience this or just trusting God even though, yeah, He gives us free will and there's

Austin: It's like when we hear from people

Rachel: Pain on Earth

Austin: Yeah, it's like, "Yeah, my marriage is falling apart, but God's in control." It's like, g yes, God is in control, but so are you.

Rachel: Mm-hmm, and He wants you to learn the lesson.

Austin: And He wants you to learn the lesson, and He wants to collaborate with you.

Rachel: Yeah. Otherwise, we'd all be robots, and it's

Austin: You know

Rachel: This whole thing's pointless.

Austin: Or it's like, "You know, I'm really failing at my job, but God's in control. I'm in a ton of debt, but God's in control." When we are self-controlled and Spirit-led, it means we know enough about ourself to where we can engage God and respond to the Spirit. Because the Spirit could attempt to lead you. Like, if you're Spirit-led, that means you're also moving. 'Cause you're not Spirit-led until you're self-controlled. So essentially, to be Spirit-led, we have to be self-controlled enough to say yes to the Spirit. Because all Christians already know the right answers. They already know where the Spirit's trying to lead. The Spirit's trying to lead to the same place it's always tried to lead which is toward- God, which is toward loving people, which is towards advancing the Kingdom of God. That's it. So when people are like, "Oh, I just don't know where the Spirit's trying to lead me," it's only a few places, okay? Now, there might be some micro versus macro.

But we have to be self-controlled enough to be Spirit-led, because how many Christians already know the right answers but they're still not going? That's because they're not self-controlled enough. They know where the Spirit is. They know how to call on the Spirit. Why aren't they doing it?

Rachel: Yeah. And this leads me to something I just wanted to throw in, which is so many people, great, great Christians, have resistance to even, you know, self-love. This isn't a topic. This isn't a discussion on self-love, but, like, even focusing on the self because the story is that it's wrong that it's not of God. And so that's why this is so important to be talking about it, because I think more people struggle with this than we even really know.

Austin: Yeah.

Rachel: Probably all of us on some level.

Austin: 100%. And so to that very point, if someone does not know how to love themself then they will feel unworthy to go to the Spirit. So if I don't know myself and I don't know that I lack love for myself and that's why I'm not going to the Spirit, then I will always wonder why I'm never going to the Spirit. 'Cause we all know where the Spirit is. We can pray, "Holy Spirit, descend upon this place, descend upon this room, descend upon my heart, des descend upon my mind. Speak to me, speak through me, and use me." A lot of Christians won't even say that because they feel so unworthy. And then they say, "I don't know why, I just can't. I just, I just can't feel God close to me. I just can't this." I'm like, "Well, it's because you've never stopped to introspect and look inside here and go, 'What is, what story am I telling myself that's keeping me from going to God?'"

And we're gonna talk about this in, I think, the second or third point. But until I know those stories I tell myself, then I may not ever even try to encounter the Holy Spirit. Yet someone will say from the pulpit, "Never focus on yourself. Don't focus on yourself." Yet the blocks in yourself might be the very thing that lead you to God. And then when you get to God, God's gonna help you do even more work on yourself. Chicken, egg, egg, chicken.

Rachel: Again, the obstacle is the way.

Austin: The obstacle is the way. That's right. So wrapping up that last point, if you don't know yourself, you cannot control how you act. If you have no awareness of the self how you operate to you, how I operate to, how I operate to me, how I operate with you how I operate with God- Then I may not ever have the ability to control myself.

Rachel: Yeah, you have to let me grow.

Austin: And I want to be Yep, and I think Paul saved self-control for the last fruit of the spirit, 'cause it's kinda the ultimate fruit of the spirit.

Rachel: To be able to attain all the others.

Austin: Yeah, because if I have no self-control, I'm definitely not gonna be love

Rachel: Loving, yep, yep

Austin: Joy, peace, you know, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, gentleness. I always Those three, four always mix up.

Rachel: The last, yeah the last three.

Austin: Anyways, so let's move on to the second point. So the second point is when we work on ourselves or the self we're able to live out God's love and will for us, which is to love God and love others. It's Go ahead.

Rachel: Which means the people that benefit the most from us loving ourselves or being self-reflective, focusing on ourself and growing are those around us. So, you know, and I, I do this a lot when I'm coaching with women is, like, "Hey, you know, if you're not taking care of you, you can't take care of your family. If you're not taking care of the me you can't take care of we, like your family unit." So if you need to look at it from a place of, "This isn't selfish." "I'm doing this because it means I'm better for others." So if that's even just trying it on to even be able to get there because it is so ingrained in us for various reasons, right? The way we're up, brought up, you know, taught, even just, you know, in the church, but it can be so ingrained that even doing something for yourself means it's selfish. But really caring for yourself, being aware of yourself, growing and, you know, having that love for yourself out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

And so if you're aware of your landmines, then you're able to to love others well. If you're healed, you're able to support others well and be in really great community and be an even better leader, disciple, witness, all of that.

Austin: Yeah. It's, i it's just, like, you know, if I were being really selfish, I would never work on myself. You know why? 'Cause I'm really pleased with me. So when I'm with myself, I can say what I want, do what I want, think what I want, act the way I want. I can say whatever jokes I think are funny. I can make whatever comments I want. I could, I could be totally unenlightened, and it wouldn't affect anyone but me, 'cause I'm just there with me. So if I was actually going to be very selfish and really appeal to this, maybe this nature or this humanity a lot of people believe that I'm just, you know, born selfish or whatever. If I just sat in that, it actually, it, it would be great. I would never have to change anything ever. But because I want to be in relationship with people because I wanna be in community with people like you said, all the, the, the, the nu the top people that benefit from my inner work is not me.

It's the people around me.

Rachel: It's me.

Austin: Yeah, it's you, and it's my kids, and it's the people we help and it's the people at church. Because again, if I was just being selfish, I would never change anything about me, 'cause I would be completely content with who I am. It's just like I'm just me. I'm me for me, okay?

Rachel: Yeah, like if you're des on a desert island. It's like, doesn't matter.

Austin: This is, this is the logic of this. I, I think a lot of people and pastors are not clicking on. If I was left alone in my selfishness, I would change nothing. But I am compelled by my love for God and my love for others to heal, to self-reflect, to introspect, so that- I don't work out my own shame on other people. When I am working on the self, the me, the Austin self, everyone around me benefits. Because until I learn all my blind spots, you're my mirror. My kids are my mirror. My friends are my mirror. My clients are my mirror, okay? Because relationship means the art of relating to someone. So what I do is, what, what every person does is they act and they speak, and then they wait for a reflection. And then they take that information, and then they res they introspect on that. They reflect on that. And until you learn to heal your stuff and to take responsibility for your stuff, you'll always use the people around you as a teaching tool.

That's not fair. It's not fair to them. Because then your insecurities get projected on other people. Your shame gets projected on other people. Your guilt gets projected on other people. You start to blame the people around you for how you feel. You know, it's like if someone looked at me and said, "Austin, your biceps aren't that big." I'm like, "Wow, you're a jerk. That was so unloving of you." It's like, well, maybe they just said the truth because objectively my biceps aren't huge, okay? But if I'm insecure about it, then all of a sudden I'm now blaming them for a feeling I have about myself. But because I know that my biceps aren't huge, if someone said that to me, I'd be like, "Ha ha. Yeah, that's hilarious. Good thing I carry a gun," you know? "So I don't need big biceps." You know? Like, just joking. You know, and so

Rachel: Wink.

Austin: Wink. And that's why it's so important to do that type of inner work. So it's actually the most selfless thing to do to focus on yourself. Because when I focus on that, when I focus on me, I become a way better husband, a way better father, a way better friend. Because I start to take responsibility for the parts of myself that aren't healed and aren't loved that I'm expecting everyone else to do for me. So it's actually selfish to ignore the self, okay? It's selfish to ignore the self because then you'll be oblivious to how you treat other people your effect on other people, how you affect the environment, how you affect the rooms that you go in. It is selfless to know the self so well that I can be fully present with you without projecting any of my stuff onto you and then treating you a different way for it.

Rachel: Right, which leads me to a scri our scripture, which is Matthew 7:3-5: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take that speck out of your eye,' when all the time there's a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite." "First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." So this is Jesus talking. And He's saying- Hey, look he's basically talking about projection. how glorious is this that we can see a little thing that's wrong in someone else's eye, you know? but then we literally have a plank. My sister and I growing up, we used to pretend like we were getting hit by each other by a plank

Austin: Oh my gosh, that's great

Rachel: When we were, like, trying to call each other out. We'd be like, "Oh, you just hit me." It was a way of bringing humor into, our disputes

Austin: Probably, probably actually painful discourse.

Rachel: It worked.

Austin: But, but it's so true, and again, this is why it's so selfless to do this work. If I never focus on myself, I'm never gonna see the planks. And then in every conversation I have, I'm gonna be smacking people with the plank that's in my eye. But again, if I wasn't concerned, I just want everyone to hear me when I say this, if I wasn't concerned with the well-being of the people around me- I would not focus on myself. Because I'm good with me. Like, if it's just me on an island and all I have to do is get along with me, I'm great at that. I can entertain myself all day long happily. Like, I love Yeah, I'd, I'd be good, all right? But because I care about the people around me, I don't want them getting planked in the face so I do the selfless thing and I pull the planks out of my eye. And again, I think the church when they say, "Don't ever focus on the self, just be Godful," or whatever, I think what they're saying is, "Don't be blatantly selfish."

Rachel: Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say. We're not saying, take the cupcake for yourself and be like, "Yeah, guys, actually I'm gonna eat all 12 of these." "Sorry, I'm just gonna focus on myself." That's not it.

Austin: We're not saying that at all

Rachel: That's, that's being selfish in your actions. But what you could think is if you're prone to do that- "Hmm, why is that?" Getting curious. That's what we're talking about, being aware. Why would I wanna take 12 cupcakes? Why didn't I have love in my heart for like, the joy to share with other people.

Austin: Yeah. Being selfless is to benefit the people around you. And to be selfish is to only hold the principle value of your own priority at the expense of others.

Rachel: Yes. Bingo.

Austin: You can eat all 12 cupcakes if there's no people around.

Rachel: Right. I mean, yeah.

Austin: It would be loving and considerate to have one if there's, you know, other people around you. And so the most selfless thing you can do is the painful, 'cause it is painful, the painful, introspective, self-reflective, healing work and awareness of the self so that you show up in a different way around other people. For a lot of people, it's difficult for them to realize where their blind spots are. And if they have a blind spot of just pride, okay, then they'll never be coachable, they'll never be humble, they'll never be teachable, and it will be very difficult for people to want to be in a relationship with them because that person's never willing to shift. They're never willing to modulate. They're never willing to, to come together on a point. So then that person will slowly lose those friendships because no one will wanna hang out with them. All right? Because when they're around other People don't like being around them. Well, it would benefit everyone there if that person were to slow down and be like, "Hmm, I wonder why people don't wanna be around me.

Oh, okay, maybe I'm not very coachable. Why aren't I coachable? Well, maybe I had a traumatic childhood, and so I don't have the strength to be, resilient. I only have the strength to survive, and being humble is requires strength, and if I'm in survival mode, I can't be humble. Because when I'm in survival mode, I can't learn." That's why it's so important to be willing to do that, that inner work. So let's move on to the third point, which I actually think ties in really well to this one, and, and that is knowing the self can actually lead you to God. Knowing the self can lead you, I would say, leads you and others to God. And so if we're, and we said this a little bit earlier, so I might skip some of this, but if we're self-led but we're If we're spirit-led but we're kinda self-ignorant, then we have a problem. Because for a lotta people, it's actually their limiting beliefs that would ever keep them from even considering God.

If their hearts are far away from God, "If their hearts are far away from me," as God would say, then generally they won't even put themselves in a place or a posture where God can even impact them, okay? if, if we're not self-controlled, it's very difficult to hear the Spirit, and then we can't be led by the Spirit. Again, if you have so little self-control that all you wanna do on a Sunday morning is stay at home and watch TV and eat pizza and never go to church, how can you be Spirit-led? If, if you never even wanna be around other people, be around the body of Christ, because

Rachel: There's something there

Austin: Yeah, maybe if you have such maybe massive anxiety or depression or fear, and you know, you, you, you literally know so little about how you operate that you're like, "Yeah, for some reason I just don't wanna go to church," you have a lack of self-understanding. Because maybe you're telling yourself a story on an unconscious level and you just don't know it. "If I go to church, I'll get hurt. If I go to church, I'll get abused. If I go to church, I'll get used," okay? Maybe you grew up with religious trauma. Maybe there's a generation behind you of religious trauma that's stuck in your nervous system. And so if we can actually slow down and kinda understand those stories that maybe are keeping us from getting close to God, then we can actually be brought into an opportunity to be Spirit-led. Because ultimately, why do you think people resist coming to church and knowing God? Because they probably have a belief system, right, or a past experience, right, or fear-based emotions that they maybe don't understand that are running the show.

Right? Like, if you just go talk to a random person, you're like, "Hey, come to church with me." They're like, "Ah, no, thanks." Well, they're saying, "No, thanks," instead of like, "Oh, tell me more."

Rachel: Yeah. There's a reason.

Austin: They're saying, "No." They've already made up their mind. Well, why have they already made up their mind? Like, do they even know? Like, do you think people even know?

Rachel: I think they have s the service level reasons, like, yeah, usually some Christian was judgmental or they just had a bad experience

Austin: Yeah, and if

Rachel: From something in the church.

Austin: Yeah. So if we tell people to not understand themselves, then we're gonna tell them to stop trying to understand what might even keep them from being close to God because just think about this. Most Christians know the right answers. The right answers can be found in the, the book, the Bible. We have that book, okay? We have the Bible, okay? And so they know the right answers, yet why aren't they taking action, right? Why aren't they taking action? If we have the answers, we know the will of God for the most part because of the word of God, okay? We know the tenets, we know the laws, we know the scriptures, we know the prophecies, we know all these things. Then why don't people go and execute? Well, it's because there is a part of the self that is in conflict, okay? We, we've said this before. God's success rate is not 50%. So if all we have to say is, "Well, just go to church, believe in God and pray and read the Bible and everything will be fine," if that was actually true, everyone would be perfect.

Rachel: Yeah, we'd be perfect.

Austin: Everyone would be perfect. So we have to look at at the facts. If we look at this even remotely logically and say, "Well, if Christians have what people would call, you know, the, the playbook which is the Bible, then why do we sometimes still not choose?" Well, someone say, "Well, it's because we're selfish and we're prideful and we're sinful and that that's our human nature." Oh, okay. So you're saying that our, our human nature has a big part of it, right? "Well, yeah, Austin, people's human nature keeps them from loving God and going to church and being a great Christian." Oh, so you're saying their self has a big part of how they engage with God? Yeah. Okay, so we should focus on the self. No, no, no, no, no. Don't focus on the self. Focus on God. That's the maddening piece for me. It's understanding that God has a perfect and pleasing will for our lives. A big part of the equation. Again, if, if the whole equation was God, it'd be perfect, but there's also the us equation.

And for most people, they're not following God, they're not responding to God, they're not following what the Bible says because there is a part of the self they don't understand. If we understood ourselves, all of our limiting beliefs, our blocks, our resistance, our fears, our shame, our guilt, if we knew all that, we would fully pursue God on a completely different level. So the church is accidentally killing its people because they're saying, "Don't over fo don't ever focus on the self," but yet knowing the self is one of the most important pieces to us knowing God.

Rachel: That's why there's so much anxiety and confusion and honestly, people leaving church because they're just disappointed and frustrated because they're like, "Why?" "Why can't I Why don't I feel God?" "Why don't I see God working? Why are these bad things happening?" They don't understand because they don't have the tools, or they've been told basically two things that contradict each other, so then they're coming to head and that's how you create anxiety. It's like, "Oh, I can't do this, but I can't do this. Oh."

Austin: Yeah, and h how many times have we met people, have we worked with people that, you know, they were never interested in, in, in God, never interested in coming to church? Well, through relationship okay, through mentoring, okay, just through friendship even, they realize that, well, they had a really bad relationship with their dad, and because they had a really bad relationship with their dad, they had a really hard time with, like, a male authority figure, you know, or, or s any type of authority, leadership type role, a fatherly type role. Let's just call it that. And so once they realize that, oh, I've resisted going to church to be loved by God because- I had so much trauma with my dad. That's a self thing. That's not a spirit thing. That's not a necessarily a spir it could be, that could be predicated by the Spirit of God moving pr like, as, you know, I real believe in prevenient grace. Like, I believe- God's moving in our life before we know him or believe in him.

But how many times have we known people where they're like, "Yeah, like, I've resisted going to church, and I don't know why." And I'm like, "Well, what was your relationship with your dad like?" "It was terrible." Okay, I'm paraphrasing. "Well, maybe the bad relationship with your father has kept you from ever wanting to submit to another fatherly relationship." And their mind's like . Well, it took knowing a bit of themself. The grammar here is kinda funny. It took knowing themselves, and then all of a sudden, they were willing to show up at church and meet God. And this is why we as Christians have to be effective. This is why we as Christians have to be conscious, and we have to be excellent people because the Holy Spirit will work through the conduit of our relationships with others. Because think about it. Most people don't randomly go to church. Most people don't wake up one day and they're like, "You know what? I'm gonna go visit a church."

Even we live in the Bible Belt.

Rachel: Sometimes but it's rare.

Austin: Yeah, yeah. We live in the Bible Belt where there's 690 churches in Kansas City, right? People still typically don't wake up one day, and they're like, "You know what? I'm gonna go to Taco Bell and then that church." They just ty

Rachel: Pop in real quick.

Austin: Yeah, they just, they just typically don't pop in and do that, okay? They come to church because they've been nurtured by a Christian. A neighbor, a coworker, a friend, okay, a client, okay, a service provider, a home service person. You know, it's the HVAC guy, comes over to your house and says, "God bless you." And the person's like, "Wow, God bless me." You know? People come to church, people end up in relationship with God because a Christian nurtured them. Okay? And so this is why it's so important that Christians are willing to help people understand themselves because more than likely, someone's whole thing with God is what? It's not that they really don't think God is real. It's not that they really don't think I mean, they look around themselves and think, "Okay, the existence of this world violates every law of physics." "There has to be a God." Most people are gonna be willing to say there has to be a God. They're not going to church because of fear, shame, guilt, or childhood trauma or childhood religious trauma.

That's self stuff. So if we as Christians are willing to help people dig into that a little bit, like- "Hey, like, I love you so much, and the Spirit of God is leading me to love you. Like, I wanna understand the story. I wanna understand the reason of, like, why you don't feel safe going to church." "Oh, well, I was molested by this guy that said he was a pastor." It's like, "Oh my gosh, that's really painful. Like, that's really hard. Like, I'm really sorry. Like, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. Like, will you tell me more about that?" And, you know, working with people, loving on them so that they can understand their self's block between them and God. So through understanding the self might lead them to coming to God for maybe the very first time, or understanding God on a whole new level. Okay? And so again, this is egg, chicken, chicken, egg. Once they've made that step, okay, so let's just say that we as Christians help people figure out their blocks.

'Cause again, I'm just gonna say this one more time, most people aren't going to church, they don't wanna be a Christian because of some story they're telling themselves. "Christians are hypocritical," "I was abused by the church or abused by a Christian," or, "I don't like Christians." That's the story. Once we help them know the story, they can flush out the peace in here, in the self, that will make them engage going to church. Okay? So then they go to church, then they can get another experience with the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit does the big work in them and then it's this chicken, egg, egg, chicken thing. It's like the Spirit of God is convicting them, they look inside and do the work, they get closer to God, God helps them do deeper work, and it's a beautiful spiral towards wholeness.

Rachel: Yeah, and I think another point to mention is that if we believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then isn't focusing on in us ourself really important? You know, I think about sitting down to read the Bible or praying or any of that, like it is an introspective thing. It goes hand-in-hand with coaching work, healing tools and techniques. You know, this is why everything we do here is faith and psychology merged because it is heart, soul, mind, strength. But we are the temple of God. So if we're the temple of God, our bodies technically like our soul, our space where that we live in that we dwell in, the Holy Spirit dwells in. And so it's good to focus on a good dwelling for the- Holy Spirit and, and embodying the Holy Spirit and allowing the Holy Spirit to move and flow. You know, I'll never forget this quote, I, I don't even know who it was. It, it may have, been John Lindell, but it's easy to get the Holy Spirit to come, right?

Like we ask for the Holy Spirit, he comes. But it can be more difficult for him to stay. And I think that's because we get in the way. Or we stop, doing the work, you know to like, "Hey, I'm like communing with God, I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm healing," and we just get in the way. And so, yeah, it's not selfish to focus on ourselves.

Austin: 'Cause then we'll stop getting out of the way. I mean, then we'll stop getting in the way.

Rachel: Yeah. Again, like you said earlier, if you only know your voice or you don't know your voice, if you don't know yourself then how can you differentiate your voice from the Holy Spirit? It is true, the more healing work I do, I can recognize, "Oh, I think that's me. That's calling the shots here." "I had this one thing, I had this experience, I had this story, this insecurity. That's calling the shots here. That's not really God speaking." But being able to differentiate we have to know ourselves.

Austin: Yeah. That's right. And there are so many times where, again, we are getting in the way of the Spirit of God. And if all we had to do was just, again, pray and read the Bible, everyone would be perfect, everything would be just fine. Okay? But I don't think God wants it to be that way. He wants it to be this partnership with us. He wants to collaborate with us. And so it's like, back to the control thing, God could make you do what he says. But God's in control and you're in control. Okay? You can choose to respond to the Spirit of God or you can choose to ignore the spirit. Okay? Very rarely Because if, if, if it was the case that the Holy Spirit would just always override us and make us do the right things, again, the church

Rachel: Then we would be perfect

Austin: Would be perfect. The divorce rate wouldn't be 50%. There, there wouldn't be just the terrible things that we're experiencing in the world and in the church. And so I really do believe that the Holy Spirit wants to work in us. It's ready to move. And there are going to be times where we choose to not respond to the Spirit because there's a self thing in the way. That doesn't mean ignore the self, it means focus in on the self. Okay? If, if you're, if the drain is clogged in your sink, okay, and you know there's a, a clog in the drain, the worst thing you can do is not focus on the clog in the drain. Someone's like, "Hey, the sink is clogged. It's backing up." "Oh, well, don't focus on the clog. Just, you know, just don't focus on the clog." Well, that makes no sense. Like sometimes we are the clog but we don't know what the clog is if we don't know ourself.

So growing up, not growing up, I guess I was older-ish, so I was in debate for like five years. I did Lincoln-Douglas debate. If there's any debaters out there, woo, drop your name in the comments below. Well, when I was in debate, I, I loved a type of debate called Lincoln-Douglas. And lots of different forms of debate, debate follow the same structure and format. But Lincoln-Douglas was, is one-on-one, it wasn't team. I preferred being on one-on-one. And, long story. But, and so in a Lincoln-Douglas debate round, it's a little bit more philosophical versus policy, okay? And so you had policy debate, which is more about, you know, pragmatic policies and stuff like that. Lincoln-Douglas was more philosophy. So you had this thing called a value and a value criterion, and the value was, here's the, the value that we all care about. This is all the thing that we agree. Like world peace was a value, ending hunger was a value, sovereignty was a value, personal liberty was a value.

But then the value criterion was how you achieved that, you know. So like if the value was, you know, world hunger, the value criterion would be, well, we tax everyone a lot so that, you know, there's enough money to, to give everyone food, or the value criterion is, well, we institute a systematic emphasis on, agriculture, sustainable agriculture worldwide so that everyone has food, you know, growing around the corner. We all agree that the value is ending world hunger, but the value criterion is kinda how we achieve it. So I think- The church's perspective on this and our perspective from a value point are the same thing. We want people to be loved by God, used by God, and we want Christians to be good at loving other people. We don't want Christians to be selfish at the expense of other people. We want Christians to be great representatives of God's love.

Rachel: Super selfless. Yeah.

Austin: Yeah, yeah. That's a value we all agree with. I think the vehicle we're talking about is a little bit different. The value criterion is different. Our way of saying the way that we actually get that, if you want Christians to be excellent people if you want Christians to be off life support and into the world of living in, like, an abundant excellence-driven life then the value criterion has to change, and the value criterion is by knowing themselves and being really excellent people people will want to be like them, and then people will want to become a Christian. Okay? If people look at your life and they don't wanna be like you they're not gonna wanna be a Christian. So you could be the person that's so Spirit-led, and loves to read the Bible, and loves to go to church, and all that, but if people can't stand being around you because you don't know enough about yourself to realize you're projecting all over people, you're judging people you're shaming people, you're chastising people, p if, if people literally are like, "Wow.

Yeah, that person, like, loves God, but they're so clueless as to how their effect is on other people." If people don't wanna be like you, they'll definitely not wanna be powered by what you're powered by. Okay? And they definitely won't want to be a Christian. Okay? So our value criterion is if the, if the church's value criterion is, "Well, just be selfless, never focus on you, and just focus on God," I don't think that'll achieve the value. It might achieve the value at 20%, which I think is unacceptable. But our value criterion is just like, "Hey, the more you actually know you, the more selfless you can be." The more loving you can be for others, the more concerned for others you can be because you're out of the way. You won't get out of the way until you know you. You won't get out of the way until you know yourself.

Rachel: Yeah, it's like, why are you so busy that you don't have time for God or your marriage? Like, that's something that's inward. Most people there's a, there's a subconscious reason that you're so busy and you're running yourself ragged.

Austin: Yep. That's, that's classic avoidance.

Rachel: Calling the shots.

Austin: Yeah, and that's r that's right. That's, that's a great point. It's like when some people are like, "Oh, I just, I just don't have time for God. I don't have time for this, have time for that." Well, you're probably being avoidant. Like, "I don't have time for my marriage. I got work. We got kids' sports. We got this. We got that." Well, you may not know this, but you're probably being avoidant. You've probably packed your schedule so tight because subconsciously you're afraid to face some stuff in your marriage, or you're afraid to face some stuff with God. And you won't figure that out until you figure out the self. And a lot of times what convicts people, sometimes the Holy Spirit, again, like we said earlier, will convict you to work on you. Like, you know, some people go to church. They go once a year. They go on Easter, and then it's like they hear something that makes them think inward. "Hmm. Why don't I bring my family to church?"

Boom. Holy Spirit's making you work on yourself, okay? It all comes down to that.

Rachel: Yeah. In the same way, if people don't like being around you, if people don't see the results of your life and want that- I know you mentioned it, but really think about it. Like, what are the results of your life? What is the evidence that you are happy, whole successful? 'Cause when you're thriving in Christ, you're successful at whatever you put your hand to, however you define that. Like, there's blessing there, and there's joy and peace and contentment and the not running yourself ragged. So, like, do people look at your life and the results you have created and say, "Yep, I want that."

Austin: "I wanna be like that." Yeah. That's right. And if the

Rachel: I just wanted to throw that in there because it's really, really That is a super important self-reflection question.

Austin: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Because again, you can tout being led by God, but if the, if people don't see that you are self-controlled, if they don't want to be like you, if they don't want to have anything to do with what you have to do with then they're gonna miss the opportunity to want to even be in the presence of God. Well, I really enjoyed talking about this with you because again, this is a powerful, powerful thought for the modern Christian to consider is that they can simultaneously focus on themselves and be fully led by God, and by doing so, they just might become the most effective Christian they can ever become. So on that note

Rachel: All right

Austin: Rachel, I think we've got a great nonprofit shout-out. you wanna share that with us?

Rachel: All right. So this nonprofit shout-out is called Hope Kids. We're gonna drop the link below, hopkids.org. You know, this time of year when we're, you know, recording this, it's August. It's literally a week before back to s it's back-to-school week, basically. And, you know, we're focusing on our children a lot, and I think this is a really good nonprofit to get your children involved in, to tell them about. There's so many, really any, but this one is specifically geared towards kids. Hope Kids provides ongoing events, activities, and a powerful, unique support community for families who have a child with cancer or some other life-threatening condition. And they surround these remarkable children and their families with the message that hope is a powerful medicine. And they are a Christian, organization

Austin: Organization

Rachel: And this message, this hope message, is rooted in scripture and really, really special, really cool. Click the link in the description to go check out and read more about what they do, and donate $5, and get your kids involved on this one. If you have children, like, tell them about it. Say, "Hey we're gonna donate $5 to help these kids that are really hurting. We wanna give them hope."

Austin: Yeah. Well, yeah. So check out hopkids.org. Again, the link will be in the description, and it's in the video. So your action item for today is actually very simple. It's the simplest action item we've ever encouraged you guys to do. All I want you to do is comment below, okay? S comment something below in the comments about this episode. What was a good takeaway? What are you excited to do? What are you thinking about? Do you agree? Do you not agree? Maybe tag a friend. We just want you to drop a comment below so we know you're there because, again, we like to just sometimes randomly take commenters and send them cool gifts. So because we love you guys. So, thanks for watching this episode. we really do love and appreciate you. Be sure to like, comment, subscribe, rate, do all the things on whatever platform you're watching from. It helps other people find us and what we're doing, and it just helps our goal is just to move the needle on helping, Christians become conscious, and integrated, and whole, and pursuing God, having excellent marriages, and finding success in all other areas of their life.

So you can help us do that by engaging with us here. So thanks for watching, and we'll see you on the next episode.