A Lack of Boundaries Will Destroy Your Marriage: Everything You Need to Know!

Transcribed from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are automated and may occasionally be off.

Austin: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Conscious Christian Marriage Podcast. We are your hosts, Austin and Rachel Holt, and we're very excited to be with you today and just have a great discussion on a topic that we get asked about all the time. And, it just happens to be that this is going to be the fourth video in our series on mutual exclusives, and we're excited to jump into it. So before we do that, we're gonna jump into our appreciations.

Rachel: Yes. Austin, I appreciate how smart you are. You are wizardly, wickedly smart.

Austin: Wa.

Rachel: Receive it.

Austin: Yes. Thank you.

Rachel: And, yeah, I'm just I think sometimes maybe I get used to it 'cause I'm married to you, but then there are all these moments where I just observe your brilliance and of like, people just don't even know

Austin: Aw

Rachel: How smart you are.

Austin: I appreciate that.

Rachel: So I, yeah, I just appreciate how smart you are, because you are very smart, and you're using your smarts for good. So thank you for that.

Austin: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. And I want to appreciate you, actually, for our last podcast episode. I just appreciate, that you just were really in flow, with yourself. And, a as I went back and edited the episode and published it last week, I just found myself, really proud of you and really inspired by you. And you always talk about how smart I am and how quick I am on my feet and stuff like that. but you're the same. Like, you're super smart, and you're really, really just Like, you didn't have any preparation for the episode, and all your answers were really honest and, like, really, really good. And we didn't really have, like, any editing on that episode. Like, it was just, like, your raw-ness and real-ness and flow. And I just really appreciate that you I think what I appreciate the most about it is that you are comfortable in your skin. You're comfortable with who you are. You love yourself. You've accepted God's love for you.

And so then you just let it flow, and you're, like, at peace with that, you know, because, like, you've done the inner work to just be at peace to say what you wanna say, and you're, like, at peace with how it comes out and how it comes across. And if people vibe with the message, great. If they don't like, that's okay, too. Like, they can go find someone else's message. And- I just And you've grown a lot in that way, because as a kind of a recovering people pleaser you used to not be so much that way. So I just- I appreciate you for that.

Rachel: Thank you.

Austin: So way

Rachel: I receive that

Austin: Way to be awesome.

Rachel: Thank you.

Austin: So all right. Well, we're gonna basically get into the third mutual exclusive of our mutual exclusive series. And so this series is called Debunking Five Mutual Debunk- Debunking Five Mutual Exclusives That, Will Benefit Your Marriage and Your Life. And essentially, when you debunk a mutual exclusive, you are proving that it's not accurate to say that two things can't exist at the same time. So that was Episode 14. Episode 15, we talked about the first mutual exclusive, which was that our faith in God and going to counseling are mutually exclusive. So basically, in that episode, we help people understand that you can both be a really faithful Christian and go to counseling. Okay? Like, you can seek healing from the great healer, and, or the great counselor, and you can see your local counselor or your local coach and get help that way, in addition to getting help from God. And then in Episode 16, we talked about, our effort and God's divine intervention are mutually exclusive, and we debunked that to help people understand that God's divinity and action in your life, like His sovereignty in the world and how He intermingles His way into your way, is not mutually exclusive of your effort, of your participation, with God.

And so that was a really fun one. We had a lot of really cool feedback. We had a lot of really, really great feedback from that, and we had a ton of people unsubscribe from our email list after that one went out. Pound it.

Rachel: Pound it.

Austin: Shake my hand. Yes. and we, we don't, we don't We, we say that sort of fac kind of jokingly, a little bit only because, we understand that there's a lot of deeply ingrained beliefs in modern Christian culture. And that one might have come up against quite a few people's beliefs that, they have zero input. and that's why a lot of Christians today are on life support, to be honest. Is they believe that they have zero co-creation and zero, participation with God and His plan. Like, in, in the models of sovereignty, we really believe in the partnership model, you know, where, yeah, like, there's this boat, and it's headed towards God and headed towards the Kingdom. Like, we know where our path is going, but we're participating. Like, we're setting the sails, and we're, we're helping, you know, run the ship, you know. That's the partnership piece we have with God. And so anyways, that was a really fun episode. Today, we're gonna talk about one that could also get us some unsubscribes as much as subscribes, hopefully.

Rachel, you wanna you wanna talk about what today's is gonna be?

Rachel: The mutual exclusive that maybe you have heard is you cannot love someone and set a boundary at the same time. And maybe more than anything, our psyche wants to tell us this. Like, this is the story that we might have, even if we maybe consciously don't believe that it's true. So you cannot love someone and set a boundary at the same time. And maybe how you've heard it is if you set boundaries with someone, it means you're not loving them without condition. Right? 'Cause loving without conditions means you love without some kind of condition. It means you're loving with condition if you set boundaries. So maybe you've heard that, and maybe subconsciously or consciously you're scr struggling with that because it is, it seems confusing. Like, if I set a boundary, isn't that, you know, air quotes, "being mean"- or, you know, not loving someone the way that maybe I'm supposed to? So we're gonna cover all that.

Austin: Yeah. So we want to help people understand that you can set a boundary with someone and still love them at the same time. Okay? That's debunking that mutual exclusive. And so the way that we are going to help people understand this today is that you can love someone and set boundaries with them that honor them and honor you. Okay? And so- You know, letting an abuser abuse you isn't loving for you and it isn't loving for them. Okay? Letting someone violate, your safety, your peace, your personal space, your personal boundaries, your spiritual boundaries, that doesn't serve them. It definitely doesn't serve you and it definitely doesn't serve them. Most people are so guilt driven because growing up, you know, guilt is about behavior, shame is about identity, right? And so for a lot of us, the threat of getting in trouble over your behavior, really instilled a deep nervous system, visceral-felt sense of guilt. You know? And guilt is just fear and anger. That's all guilt is.

And so, you know, growing up it was like, "Well, I'm so scared to do something wrong because then I'll get in trouble for it, and then I'll either get punished or I'll be separated, you know, from those who, you know, love me." And so we A lot of people grow up with a nervous system that's very guilt, you know, oriented and so there's this deep fear that's like, "Well, if I set a boundary, I'm gonna get in trouble," right? When one of the very reasons why our childhoods were often difficult was because there weren't boundaries. You know, there wasn't honest communication. There wasn't agreements that were made. And so, I think for a lot of us, it's just difficult to even You know, we feel guilty for setting a boundary. Okay? and so we wanna help people understand a little bit more about that so that they can set healthy boundaries with people. Ag again, and we're gonna talk a lot about this, about why boundaries are so much better for healthy, healthier, higher functioning people is to set boundaries.

And so the first question is what is a boundary, right? And so a boundary is a parameter or an agreement that honors everyone involved, okay? That's all it is. So, a boundary sets up everyone for success that's in the relationship, okay? And so based on each person's tendencies, values, commitments, everything. So basically, when you set a boundary, you're setting a boundary based on your dispositions, your values your desires, your commitments, and I'm basing it also on the other person in the relationship. How I know them to be, okay? And I'm setting a boundary based on Because that's all the facts that I know. I know how I am, I know how they are. And because I know that, I can set a boundary. And so a good example of this is let's just say that you let your friend in your bedroom, okay? And they steal your wallet 'cause your wallet's sitting out on your dresser. And so you can set a boundary with them.

You can still love them but not let them back in your bedroom again. Because you know they have a tendency to steal things. Okay? So you

Rachel: I've actually had this real-life example

Austin: Yeah,

Rachel: Before in my life

Austin: I know you have. Yeah. And, so that's kinda why I used this one- 'cause I thought it would, you know, tickle you emotionally a little bit, you know?

Rachel: That was great.

Austin: And so yeah, y it's like the boundary is, "Okay, I know how you are, and you're a little bit of a klepto." "And I still love you but I don't wanna tempt you." So

Rachel: So we're locking that door.

Austin: So we're locking the door. You're not allowed in the bedroom again. But, but we can I can still love you, we can still be in community, friendship relationship, but I'm not gonna let you back in my, my room again, okay? So I don't want myself, I 'Cause I know if someone steals from me, I might be bothered by it. Okay? So that's part of my boundary, and the other part of the boundary is I know they are tempted to steal, so I'm not gonna let them in my room where the wallet is. And the right way to love people, again, with setting boundaries, is to show them what unconditional love looks like for yourself so they can create it for themselves. And sometimes it might feel like a Band-Aid ripping off moment, but when I show other people what unconditional love looks like for me- I'm empowering them to do it for them. Because until someone h can do it for themself, they need to be inspired by someone else's unconditional love.

You know? And so I can't give people a type of love that I don't experience. And so if you want to actually Again, part of the purpose of this whole episode is demonstrating that you can unconditionally love someone by setting boundaries. You can actually teach them a better version of love by teaching boundaries. 'Cause you're also teaching honesty. You know? You're teaching honesty, you're teaching that perfect love casts out fear rather than hiding in fear and not setting a boundary. 'Cause you can either get hurt one of two ways. You can let them walk all over you, in a metaphorical sense, or you can rip the Band-Aid off and be like, "Hey, I, there needs to be a boundary here."

Rachel: Mm-hmm. And I was gonna say earlier, one of the reasons why we might not set a boundary or, you know, those listening, maybe, maybe this is already hitting home with you and you have not set a boundary yet, the reason could be that you are afraid of what would happen in them withdrawing love from you and what does that mean about you? And then it goes back to, do I actually love myself? Do I know my worth? Am I basing my worth on what other people say what other people do? And so then that means I'm loving myself conditionally based on So the whole world has a remote control to my emotions. And so, like you said, this is a way of modeling healthy love is first being able to give it to yourself and say, "That's not safe. That's not okay. That's damaging, so you don't deserve to be treated that way. No human does. I don't, so this is the boundary now."

Austin: Yeah. And another thing that you just made me think of, I was just having this conversation with someone the other day, is sometimes we're afraid to set boundaries because we're afraid to set the boundary and then see them violate it. 'Cause that's almost even more painful. You know? It's like, "I'm afraid to set the boundary because if I do and then you violate it, it will prove a story I've been wrestling with being true." But we all know, and it's easier said than done, it's better to know now than later. It's better to know someone's truest intentions. It's better to know someone's actual level of love for you n now versus later after a lot more trespass has taken place. And again, you, just like with the wall thing, you can still love people and not give them certain aspects and access into your life.

Rachel: Yeah. And I think, man, once kids get involved, when it's, like, our kids- In a sense that almost helped me to be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."

Austin: 'Cause then you're sticking up

Rachel: Like

Austin: For someone else not just you.

Rachel: This is not okay. I don't want that modeled for my children. I don't want them, you know, even seeing this or thinking this is normal or okay. I don't want them around this even just way of thinking or being. And then realizing, oh, but I allow that for myself.

Austin: Well, and another aspect of this to understanding this fully is it's not loving to train someone in an, in an unhealthy, uneffective strategy. Okay? If you teach someone, if you let someone walk all over you, violate a boundary, violate a loving agreement or parameter, like how we defined a, a boundary, you're actually teaching them the wrong way of living. Because you're teaching them that that's acceptable. And for some reason, maybe in your relationship, you're accepting it for some reason, and that's, I don't think that's healthy, okay? But I understand sometimes it takes people scaffolding to kind of build up to, you know, drawing a line in the sand, setting a boundary. But you're also saying, "Hey, you should do this in every other relationship because it's working." Okay? It's just, we tell our kids this all the time, like if one of our kids, you know, lies about something, there's going to be a consequence. And like I've told, you know, certain of our children many times- I'm like, "Well, hey, it's, it wouldn't be loving for me, for me to teach you that you can not tell the truth, or that you can steal, or that you can break your sister's toy and not have any repercussion.

Because in the real world, the world that you will experience more of the older you get, that could make you lose a client." "That could make you lose income. That could make you lose opportunity. That could make you lose respect of other people. And so it may hurt now, but it would be unloving for me to teach you that that's acceptable." So again setting boundaries is a act of love. 'Cause I'm saying this is the way that the world actually works. And if I s if I teach people in a way that the world actually doesn't work, it will be bad for them. You know? And so if I'm like, "Oh, yeah, it's okay to walk all over people, they'll just forgive you and, and you can just keep doing that," well, outside of that relationship experience that might train wreck every aspect of their life.

Rachel: Yeah. And it's not common for people to have enough self-love and self-worth to set these boundaries. And so if there is someone who is, abusive or violating or just maybe inappropriate or, unkind just, like, un-Christlike in the way that they interact with people, treat people, you are doing them a favor because maybe they've never been modeled what healthy boundaries look like, what healthy love looks like. Like, love looks like I'm not a doormat. Like there's, this is me. Like

Austin: Yeah, it looks like honor

Rachel: If you want to love me

Austin: And respect

Rachel: This is Yes, exactly.

Austin: Yeah. And yeah, it's like if someone was never, generally someone who never observed someone else's boundaries e even, not even agreed-upon ones but just implied ones, like kind of common sense ones generally indicates for me that they were not ever respected in their boundaries as a kid. You know? It's like

Rachel: Which is sad.

Austin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel more you know, one thing we talked about on the husband's coaching call this morning was always try to tell the best story about someone's behavior. You know, always try to attribute best case scenario intent to other people's behavior, and that'll just change the way you see the world. You know? Make you a happier, more joyful person. And so, yeah, like, if someone is constantly pushing odd boundaries and kind of trespassing people's personal, spiritual space, it's probably because they didn't have that kind of respect as a kid. And that sucks. Like, that's painful. You know? And so,

Rachel: So even if they go kicking and screaming, modeling really good health

Austin: Yeah, the, yeah

Rachel: For them

Austin: The, the slap of a friend is better than the kiss of the enemy. You know? I mean, it's so much better to, you know, have a healthy Band-Aid rip than for someone to really bounce their head off the pavement, you know, down the road. And the other thing too is that boundaries promote love because boundaries promote safety. And if people don't feel safe, they will not grow, they will not heal, they will not change, they will not evolve. You know, and this is part of the sometimes the difficult dynamic when we're trying to blend faith, psychology, healing, therapy, all that into, to a bucket together, is that sometimes it's easy for certain institutions to forget that people will not grow, adapt, change, heal, evolve, all those things, unless they feel safe. You know? And that's why fostering our relationship with the Holy Spirit and with, with Jesus and with God is so important because in that safety, we will change. You know? A lot of times in a church or ministry setting, and e even a therapeutic setting, there's another relationship in the mix too.

And so when there is a facilitated, uh W when, when we're facilitating healing and change, even by taking someone's hand and then taking God's hand and putting them together like, we're facilitating that divine kind of intersection, there's still other people involved. You know? If people don't feel safe, they typically won't open their heart, their mind, their spirit up to healing. And so boundaries is incredibly important because it just helps people feel safe. And when people feel safe, then they'll 'Cause when people are threatened, they stop growing. That's why a lot of times when someone's 12 years old and they face a massive trauma, they can be stuck in that 12-year-old mindset for a long time 'cause their growth got put on pause. Because they hit a point where they got so unsafe, they're like, "Okay, I'm just gonna survive instead of thrive." That's like even when we work with, you know, really, even really successful people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s there's certain aspects of their psyche that stopped growing way back when because something happened, and they never really addressed it, you know?

And so boundaries promote love because boundaries promote safety. It

Rachel: This is very

Austin: Oh, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

Rachel: Sometimes you just keep going like Anyway, this is very relatable to parenting, like it's a fundamental to parenting is when you give your children boundaries, they actually, they feel safer they feel more loved, versus a kid who their parents say no and then don't actually follow through. Or, you know, they say, "Don't do that," and then the kid does it, and then there's no consequences. It's like, whoa, okay, I don't know my parents. They don't mean what they say. So it feels unsafe. And so when you say what you mean and you follow through on it for children and adults, it promotes safety. Like, there is that, like, clear agreement, like you said. There's, "I know what's safe here. I know the leaps and bounds of where what they mean is what they mean and everything."

Austin: Yeah, boundaries remove guesswork. And people don't like what's uncertain and what's unknown. Like, and that's like the psych- That's psyche 101. You know, the brain does not like what it can't prepare for, because based on its, its actual experiences. And so boundaries actually help remove a lot of unknowns out of the equation. You know, like if people know in relationships like, "Hey, this is what we're about. This is how it's gonna be. this is the way that supports like our safety, our love, our growth," all those things. Like even with our kids, like they know boundaries. Like we set boundaries with our kids, and because they know that there's fewer unknowns, and then there's more freedom. You know, it's like, it's like if you go to a, a gas station and there's 600 drinks. Well, there's a lot There's, there's so many options, like you, it's hard to pick, right? But like if you know there's only three, like there's a lot of freedom in that.

It's like, oh, well, option B. Like, I'll take that one. You know? And so that's, that's really important with boundaries. because you can even have healthy boundaries in marriage. You know? And so, like, and, and a lot of people would say, you know, "Well, you know, there should be no boundaries in marriage because everything should be " Well, a marriage is a growing, healing, evolving relationship. That's what it is. Like, you enter marriage on day one, and you know a whole lot more at year one, three, five, 10, 15 you know, 60, right? And so, and most people bring hurt with them. They bring past experiences. They b they, they just bring ignorance even into marriage. And, you know, like we say, marriage is a completion of childhood. And so maybe if you had a, a dad or a mom who maybe walked all over you or criticized you or never gave you space you know, like that's like one of my tensions I'm always navigating is like I just like, I always want hugs and kisses, like from our kids, you know?

And like sometimes it's like they're all about that, and then sometimes they're not. And I try to never be like, "Get over here and give me a hug," you know? Even though sometimes inside I'm dying. I'm like, "I know you're 10, but hug me, girl." You know? And, and so but like let's just say that you had a parent that just forced you to hug them, forced you to kiss them. You know, or you had a weird uncle or grandpa or that there was some shame that it was like, "Oh, no, if Grandpa says you sit on his lap, you better do it," you know? And so then maybe you get into marriage, and even with things like sex or intimacy like, you know, if there's shame, if there's guilt that drives the behavior, then perfect love casts out fear. So there's not love present there. Like there's fear present. So even in marriage, like the times where like you and I have had conversations where it's like, "Well, hey, like this is what I'm comfortable with.

This is what I'm not comfortable with. Like, here's where, like, I feel like, like I'm just not sure how I, how I, I feel about that or whatnot," like I always respect and honor that because, like we are growing together. Like- 'cause we, we both brought 20-something years of stuff to the table when we both got married to each other. And, and so that requires adapting and modulating and and, and healthy relationships promote that modulation and adapting. They're not scared of it. You know? And so even in marriage we can have healthy boundaries, because not setting a boundary basically means you're, you're okay with people walking all over you, because it's more Basically appeasing other people is more important to you than what you actually want. And integrity is telling the truth about what you experience and the truth about what you want.

Rachel: Yeah. And it might even be, like unintentional by the other spouse, like a certain way that they, you know, hold you or touch you or move could be a trigger for you. And so having a, again, not withholding making an honest request having a really open and fluid conversation about that will help your spouse generally

Austin: Well, yeah

Rachel: Hopefully would want to honor that. So

Austin: E even a simple example, like you don't love being tickled. You just don't, because you had a, a I don't, I'm sure you don't mind if I share this.

Rachel: It's fine.

Austin: But, you know, you had an experience where, you know, some guy that was like a family friend like held you down and tickled you when you were a kid, and it like kinda jacked your nervous system up around that, you know? It's like I know I tickle you a little from time to time, and you're kinda like, "He he he, I love it," but I know to not ever like tickle, tickle you.

Rachel: No, if I can't- Yeah, if that Yeah.

Austin: Yeah, and so

Rachel: If it's like actual tickling and- I can't move.

Austin: And, and, and

Rachel: I don't like it

Austin: Again, my principal goal in our marriage is that you feel safe, loved seen, cared for, protected, all that. So that it's, of course it's easy for me, you know?

Rachel: Also, I'm extremely ticklish, like three times more than the average person.

Austin: You know, man, that's a, the whole tickle thing, man, that's such a, that's a deep dive actually. Most people don't understand the depth of tickling, but

Rachel: We should have an episode on tickling.

Austin: I think, maybe we should. I have a friend who loves being tickled. We'll talk about him another time. But, He know, he'll know when he listens to this who I'm talking about.

Rachel: Oh, my word.

Austin: Big, Big G, my man. But, so another question people ask us a lot is, you know, why does someone ever need a boundary in the first place? Again, I think this is real important is most people desire a boundary because there's been a trespass or a wound in the past that has informed either a fear that they struggle with now or a desire, for how they wanna experience their life or experience relationships, and this could be from childhood or it could be from yesterday, okay? It's, it's kinda like why a lot of, like, Paul's rhetoric, it's like people typically only offer up advice on the back of a lot of things being screwed up, right? So like a lot of times where like Paul's offering all this advice people are, "Why, why is he offering all this advice?" Well, it's probably because they got it all wrong. So it's like sort of rhetorical in a sense, but like retroactive. You know, like, "Okay, you guys clearly missed this here, so I'm gonna reteach it nine times here in all these different letters."

And so- We typically, you don't generally wake up one day and you're like, "I'm gonna set a boundary just for giggles today." You're like, "I'm gonna set it because I experienced something that was hard." And so, and this could be, again, from childhood, or it could be from yesterday. You know? It could be your friend stole your wallet last week off your dresser, so you set a boundary. It could be that, you know, your mom was hypercritical, or it could be that someone was, you know, didn't n have physical boundaries with you as a kid. And so, you know, so then in your adult life, you're like, "Hey, like I, I wanna feel hyper safe in intimacy. I wanna feel hyper, hyper safe in sex because this is what I experienced when I was younger." You know? And again, this is really important. In loving relationships, boundaries are encouraged. Okay? In generally unhealthy relationships, or maybe just ignorant relationships, boundaries are avoided. And in toxic relationships, boundaries are shamed.

So again, if you set any boundary with me, okay, I might have something to say about it at some point if I really fundamentally think that like there's a misinformed angle of it or something. But 99.6% of the time, if you set a boundary with me, if you're like And again, a boundary could just be a parameter or an agreement.

Rachel: Yeah. And I've never been like, "Hey, Austin, I need to set a boundary with you."

Austin: Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Ours are very, very

Rachel: I've made requests

Austin: Very conscious, very loving. But yeah, our boundaries look a lot like, and we'll talk about this here in a little bit, they look a lot like requests and honoring requests. But I'm gonna honor it. Like my default is gonna be, "Got it, I'm gonna honor that," because I do not get to invalidate you. Like your personal feelings, your personal experiences, your personal desires about your body, about your safety, about your mind, your heart, like those are really between you and God. And I'm here to steward what God's revealing to me about you and through you.

Rachel: Thank you.

Austin: Okay? And so those things are yours, and I can't invalidate those. Like if you tell me, "Hey, I feel sad about this, I feel unsafe about this," like, "I feel nervous about this," I can't be like, "No, you don't." Like I, I cannot do that. I'd be a terrible husband if I did that.

Rachel: Or you're crazy.

Austin: Yeah. Or you're crazy, right. Yeah. and so in really safe, powerful, God-honoring relationships, boundaries are encouraged, welcomed, and honored. In unhealthy relationships, they're avoided, and the worst ones are shamed. Like, "Wow, like I can't believe you'd do that to me. I'm your husband." Like, "How dare you wanna be safe and loved in this relationship?" You know? And even just outside of marriage, all relationships, right? Like if you told the person, "Hey, I, I love you. You can still come over, but I'm not gonna let you in my bedroom anymore because you stole my wallet." If they're like, "Wow, that's really unloving of you," like then we really get into narcissism and gaslighting and all these different things, right? Where it's like, okay, obviously, this person is revealing their highest value in the relationship. And it's not mutual safety, trust, and love. It's a form of parasitism, where, they're getting something out of the relationship, and you're being harmed. And they think that's how it should be.

And I have sadness for them because they grew up thinking that was normal at some place and time. But that's obviously not right, and that's not what we wanna encourage in relationships or tolerate really in any way.

Rachel: Yeah. On that note, you know, boundaries are not a condition of your love. They're more an expression of your love. A way of, you know, investing and building a healthy, thriving relationship. And so I think of the best relationships that I have, I've had some of those, you know, the slap of a friend is better than the kiss of an enemy moments where- I've said, "Hey," even just encouraging them to growth in certain areas, but saying, "Hey, this, this came out this way. I'm curious what you mean that way." Or just being willing to have difficult conversations or drawing lines in the sand. And, what I, I really appreciate that very early on in our marriage, you helped me understand this for when I was setting boundaries with family and different things. Like I actually love you enough to have this difficult conversation. It's difficult for me. If I didn't love you, I actually just wouldn't have the conversation, and I'd just check out. And that's unfortunately what a lot of people do.

They might not love themselves enough to have those conversations, and they regret it because then they, they leave the potential there. or it just continues in this toxic thing where there's just drama over and over and over.

Austin: W w yeah.

Rachel: But

Austin: Well, one, one thing, a shift you made in your life which I really appreciate was there was a season or time where it was you had a handful of friends that you were like Marco Polo-ing every e e every day for like hours and hours and hours and hours. And

Rachel: I did enjoy that. It was, started with COVID, okay?

Austin: Yeah. I, I know. And but it got to a point where like you felt like it was taking away from your marriage and your parenting

Rachel: My mission

Austin: And your mission and your work and, and just like the most important things God was having you do. And, and I really appreciate how you stepped in integrity, and you just told these, these friends of yours, who are great people, by the way and you just said, "Hey, I'm in a season where I, I, I just can't be having these like hour-long Marco Polo back and forth every day. Like if we need to chat, we can talk on the phone. We can still be connected and be in community and all that. But I just can't. Like, you know, like- I, I need to kinda set a new parameter, kind of a new agreement in the in the friendship that like I don't wanna feel the pressure that like if you send me an hour-long Marco Polo, that I've gotta respond to it like today or tomorrow or even within a week because, like I have mother duties. I have wife duties. I have work duties.

I have faith duties. That all those things have to happen first, and then if I have time after that, I could get to stuff like that. But then there, the time just ran out. And that was a couple things. Like one, that was you setting a really loving boundary 'cause because you cared about them, you told the truth. So one, that was a great boundary, but two, you were stepping into integrity because like you knew that there was a misalignment there. And this was like such a a misalignment that looks so benign.

Rachel: Yeah, it looks like a good thing.

Austin: It looks like a good thing, but it was

Rachel: I'm just chatting.

Austin: Yeah, but it was taking away from other things that, that came before those things. So like I just think like that was a great investment because you could have just gone to like villain mode- And then one day been like, "All right. I'm just not talking to anyone anymore," you know? But, like, you were like, you were honorable about it. Like, you noticed, like, hey, like, I think this needs to shift, you know? And it shifted, and a lot of positive things actually came from that. you already said this, but I was gonna bring up another point. Just, yeah, sometimes boundaries can feel like a Band-Aid rip. But again, the slap of a friend is better than the kiss of the enemy. And there's two different real types of boundaries, and we're gonna talk about that in a second. But, you know, this can apply to friends. It can apply to anything, right? But it's There's times where we have to step in and redefine how things can look because if we don't, we enter this slippery slope where then resentment, regret, bitterness, and that kind of thing can, can start to happen.

And again, friendships, family, relationships, marriage, anything. And it's better to have that conversation up front and step into integrity versus not having that conversation and then seeing a friendship or a relationship actually get damaged, and sometimes damaged to the point of irrepair because and spiritually, I wanna believe that any relationship in any fashion for any reason can always be forgiven and repaired period. And there's, like, a part of me like, the little faithful, faithful boy in me that can, that can really believe that and, and does. There's also the part of me that knows that the way God designed us and God designed, you know, our, our psyche and our brain and all those things. And I know there's a lot of debate on how God designed us and how we became are different, and I g- I get that, so everyone don't put your super theological hats on here and try to slice me up here 'cause this is a I'm gonna paraphrase, like, an hour conversation into one sentence.

But there is a physiological thing that happens in our brain with betrayal. And when trust is broken and betrayal happens, a lot of times a switch is flipped that's very, very, very, very, very hard to un-switch. And yes, we can forgive, and yes, we can love, and we can have coaching and go to counseling and go to therapy and go all do all these things. But if we have a relationship that there's boundary issues and we let those boundary issues get pushed too far all slopes are slippery, so we hit the slippery slope. It then ends in a terrible trespass, broken trust, betrayal, et cetera. That can sometimes doom the relationship forever. And again, a part of me wants to be like, anything can be forgiven and repaired. I think all things can be forgiven. Repaired is a process. Sometimes a lifelong process. Sometimes God can divinely help repair for us. Sometimes He doesn't because He's trying to teach us something or there's something better we can't see.

But if we don't set boundaries, ultimately we could, we could lose that relationship forever because, again, when that trust, betrayal this a lot of times why when people get 95% of the way to divorce, they can't come back because they get friends involved, family involved, attorneys involved. They start divulging their spouse's secrets. Those secrets get leveraged against them, and then that's this ultimate- Oh, yeah. That's it, the switch There's books written about this. The, the switch flips, and it's like, all right. Done. And that's what we don't wanna have happen. Boundaries protect relationships, and they promote love. That's just period, end of story. And it'd be better to rip the Band-Aid early than lose it all later 'cause the real litmus test of all boundaries, okay, and especially in the case of more serious boundaries, like something happened, so I need to set a boundary. If people aren't willing to rehabilitate, like if something happened, okay, like let's just say you got a family member.

And they kinda overstepped something, okay? They hurt someone. They betrayed your trust, something like that, and we have to set a more serious boundary. Like, you cannot be around my kids or my family if you are this way. Let's say you have a family member who struggles with alcoholism or something like that, and it's like, "Hey, I love you, but you cannot be around my family if there's alcohol involved." Like, let's just I, I'm just making something up. If that person is not willing to rehabilitate, then they don't get to make it through the boundary. Okay? Because when someone is serious about change or earning back something they previously had with you, it will be obvious. Okay, like for example, like when we're helping people with addiction, right? It's like if someone has a problem with alcohol, an active problem with alcohol, but they're going to 90 meetings in 90 days, man, I'll work with that person till I'm blue in the face 'cause I know they're committed.

Okay? If they're going to a meeting, if they're finding a way to get to a meeting every single day for 90 days- I know Like, they might be struggling, okay? They're still deep in the healing, you know, valley of their their journey, but they're doing everything they possibly can. No one goes to 90 meetings in 90 days that's not very, very, very, very serious about breaking an addiction whether that's alcohol, drugs, sex addiction, whatever, whatever it is. And so if you set a boundary with someone and they do anything less than that, then what they're telling you is that they're choosing their preferences over being in your life. And there's no real judgment to that. It just is what it is. It would just be better if everyone told the truth about it.

Rachel: Right, and they might not ever tell the truth about it. But the truth is shown by their actions.

Austin: Exactly. You know, so if you tell a family member, "Hey, you can't come over and spend time with me and my family if you're gonna cuss, drink, be unloving, be toxic talk negative about this, talk " Like- I'm not gonna allow that 'cause, like, f especially for me as the husband, my job is to protect the walls of our home. It's to protect our ecosystem, okay? I just had a coaching call with a one-on-one client of mine about this the other day, and then he sat down with his wife and had this epic conversation about what they're filtering out and filtering in. It was really really awesome. He shared it on the husband's call today. But it's, it's my job, and it's your job, but it's, it's a little bit more my job than yours, I believe, to protect the walls of our home. So if I say to someone, "Hey, you cannot come in the walls of our home if you're going to be this way," because I Everything that I let through the walls of my home, I'm teaching my children that I approve.

And

Rachel: And then they teach themselves, "This is normal. This is okay."

Austin: If that person is not willing to do whatever it takes to adjust and modulate to that, then they're just saying, "Hey, I'd rather have my preferences than-" be with your family. And again, there's no judgment for that. It is what it is. They're, they're making a choice. But we should all stop lying and just say what we actually want the most. Rather than pretending, "Oh, yeah, I wanna be with your family." "But even though you said not to be this way around them, I'm gonna keep doing that and hope that you just don't care, you don't notice." Well, conscious people notice. Okay? And so we can still minister to people that are just like we are. They have sin, they have brokenness, all that, okay? But the people who come through the walls of my home and sit on the couch in my living room with my children

Rachel: Or who I go to the walls of their home

Austin: I will protect them at all costs. Because anyone who harms a child, it would be better to tie a frigging rock around their neck and jump in the ocean.

Rachel: Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say. When it, when it comes to our children, like, they are templating everything that they see. Everything that they're watching, the people that they are around, they are learning this is normal. Whether it's okay or not, if they are around it, their brains are saying, "This is how adults are. This is how people who are married act. This is how grandmas treat their grandkids." "This is how, people can speak to me. This is how my mom allows people to speak to me. Is this how much I'm worth?" So our kids are templating. They're learning. They're absorbing everything, soaking it up like a sponge. So what you allow is extremely important. If you have kids, it's important for you.

Austin: What you allow, you approve.

Rachel: If you have kids, yeah, it's even more important because you are their Like, God gave them to you to be their, to steward their souls. So

Austin: And what you allow, you approve, and what you approve, you endorse. Period, end of story. And if you don't wanna live to that high a standard, like, that's for you, but then I would ask yourself the question, are you experiencing really high-caliber results in your life with that mentality? My money would be that you're probably not. So we experience really awesome results in our life, in our marriage, our, our finances, our kids, our ministry, like, all that, because we don't apologize for living to that standard. Okay? And we- I, we are responsible for what we allow and what we create, period. And so the, all this kinda brings us to our key scripture for today, which is Proverbs 4:23. "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it." Okay? And this is why it's like, you know, everyone tries to talk about they take the one scripture, "Heart's deceitful above all things," and we could just totally go into that, like, over and over and over again, but, "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it."

Okay? This verse really emphasizes the importance of protecting and, I think, also setting boundaries for one's heart, which encompasses emotions, thoughts, desires. 'Cause even back when this was written, heart really meant not just your heart from a, you know, a heart standpoint but also your thoughts, your feelings, even decisions. Okay? There's kinda one word. That's why even when, Jesus quoted the Deuteronomy and said, "Heart, soul, mind, strength," he amended the, the, when it was said in Deuteronomy, when he said the Shema, which was missing one of those words. But, so our heart encompasses our emotions, thoughts, and desires, and it serves as a foundational This scripture serves as a foundational principle for establishing emotional and spiritual boundaries- I believe. above all else, guard your heart, okay? And so at the end of the day, one kind of giant parameter, one giant filter, one giant stipulation is guard your heart. Protect what goes into it. Protect what environments your heart goes into. Okay? And so, you know, this is why, you know, even in ministry, you can't say, "Oh, you can minister anywhere, anytime to anyone for anything, no matter what."

Well, I don't go to strip clubs and minister there. Okay? 'Cause I have to protect my heart. Okay? Because if I make my heart, if I, if I jeopardize my heart, it could jeopardize my marriage and my kids. And you're my first ministry, and they're my second ministry. And so if I allow people into my home that muddy the waters of the spiritual, emotional, mental, ph theological teachings of my children- I'm not guarding their hearts. We know people, we have family members, we have friends, that aren't healthy, and we can still love them and minister to them without g giving them access to mess up our hearts or our children's hearts. And again, what we said at the beginning of this episode, some people think, well, you can't love people by setting a boundary. Ultimately, your boundaries with other people promote love to other people. Okay? Like, I have certain like, I, there's certain people that just are not allowed into the walls of our home 'cause I know they will not be influentially positive to my kids.

So I have a boundary with Person A to protect Person B.

Rachel: Yeah. And when we set those boundaries with these people, and, and some of that might be they might not even be willing, and we know it, and it's, we know that they're probably just never gonna be in our lives. And that might be another topic for another day, but I just wanted to mention that, that you might set this boundary knowing that they're probably not gonna be in your life. But, but consuming, letting them consume energy or take energy away from you like, let's drop all the bad examples, right, for your kids and guarding hearts, but, like, your energy and where micro-stressors, whether micro or macro, like huge stressors in your life are coming from. Like, we do a, an exercise with ourselves and with our community to really look at where stressors are coming from in your life, and you'd be surprised how many micro-stressors there are. But this could be a macro-stressor. But regardless, I'm getting to my point here.

Austin: That's good. You're, I love it.

Rachel: Regardless, that energy is taking away from, yes, your m your marriage, yes, your children if you have them, but also the good that you could be giving to other people. Because

Austin: You're taking oxygen

Rachel: You can't

Austin: Out of one room and giving it to a room that doesn't want it

Rachel: Yeah, like, if they are unwilling, they are unwilling, and that is okay. You can love them and say, "That's great for you. Like, I love you." But I am not going to let you take my energy for what could be used for thousands more over here And one person could take the energy of what could be given to so many more people. And so when you look at it that way too, that might help it settle into your nervous system or into your heart more of, wow, this is sucking this energy from me, and, and this is, it's like throwing pearls to pigs. Like, this could be going to people who need it, want it, who are hungry and thirsty and, and desire, like, my company, who desire my encouragement, my love, and that would bless them and lift them up and, and create change in their hearts and their lives and the world. There's just so much good that can come from really paying attention to where those stressors are coming from and setting those boundaries so that you can live the abundant life.

We're just talking about that today.

Austin: That's right. Well, and actually, you just dovetail perfectly into this next question that a lot of people ask us, and those who are listening right now may be wondering, is how do you effectively set a boundary? And there's a lot of tactical we could get into, but and we have a wh we have a lot of processes and strategies that we teach, like, you know, to people, you know, more one-on-one in, in our program. But here's a few big steps that if you're listening to this and you're like, "Okay, how do I set a boundary? H how do I do it effectively so that I don't, you know, set my whole life on fire accidentally because I listened to this podcast today?" well, first, you need to think of the purpose of the boundary. So boundaries can be more one-sided or more two-sided, kinda depending on the purpose. So if it's a repair, it may be more one-sided, like what we're talking about with like a toxic family member, okay?

Let's just say you've got a toxic family member, and it's like, "Hey, this, this is a parameter. It's not so much an agreement. It is an agreement that I'm agreeing to, and if you wanna agree to it, that's great. And if you don't, then you just won't be in proximity to us." Okay? "So if you want to be around my family, here is how you will act around them. You'll be loving, you'll be kind. you won't be doing this and you won't be doing that, okay? And it's not because I don't love you. It's because that type of behavior is not tolerated in my home." "So if you agree to that, great. If not, then let me know when you do so that we can spend time together again," okay? or again, it's like, "Hey, you came over to my house and you stole from me, and you cannot come over to my house if you steal from me." So you can agree to that and come over or not agree and don't come over, okay?

That's more of a one-sided repair type boundary. If it's a boundary to help build or deepen or enhance, it can be easier to create a more win-win boundary where both people are weenie, are, are willing to modulate to it. Okay? Like, sex might be an example of that, okay? So if it's like, "Hey, I really wanna feel really safe in sex. I don't wanna be pressured," or, "I don't wanna feel, you know, fear," or something like that, and so, "I'd like to discuss that, create some agreements around that, that just kinda honor the meets and bounds of how we both approach sex." So then you can actually create like a win-win agreement. and that creates a boundary that's going to help enhance something. And that, I, I don't like to use the word should, so I, okay, I'll just say that type of conversation would be beneficial. And I think it should take place if that's your goal. Does that make sense? So that's kinda like step one is just determine like what kind of boundary, like, is this. and then so step two is to actually create the boundary.

You need to tell the truth about what you're experiencing, because that's inarguable. Okay? So, like, you talk to someone like, "Here's how I feel about blank." Okay? and that's you telling the truth for you.

Rachel: Not saying you made me feel. It's, "Here's how I feel-" "about blank."

Austin: Yeah. And then the second piece to that would be you take your own radical responsibility, okay? It's like, so let's just say it's, it's a toxic family member. "Hey, when you're over at my house, and you come over and maybe you've been drinking, or you come over and you're angry, or you're, you're disrespectful, or you use weird language or something like that, I feel really uneasy about that, and I feel really uneasy about my kids listening to that." Or- "I don't want my, my home is a place of peace. It's not a place where people come over and they talk about politics and they talk about this and talk about that and just, and make the environment or the ethos really uneasy or really unloving," okay? "I take responsibility because I have not brought this up to you before-" " but I am now." "And so I'm not saying necessarily what you're doing is inherently wrong, but it's making it difficult for me to be in a relationship with you, and it does not align with my values for my family, you know, and our ecosystem," okay?

That's taking responsibility. And the next step is you create an agreement that you can stand by, okay? "So here's the agreement I can stand by, and if the other person wants to also stand by that, they can." Okay? So it's like, "Hey, we really want to spend time with you, but when you're with us and our kids, what's not acceptable is making sexual jokes." Maybe it's cursing. maybe it's coming over with alcohol, okay? Maybe it's talking poorly about someone. Like, maybe you have a parent who's divorced, and your parent comes over and they talk smack on the other parent. You know? Like, that's unacceptable. "And so we want you to spend time with us, but if you're gonna come over and spend time with us, th this is how it's going to be." "And if you're good with that, then great, and if you're not good with that, then we have a problem." Okay? So if you follow those steps, that's how you actually set a boundary.

And so you can do it with composure. You can do it with love, with grace, with peace, with compassion, all those things. but what you don't wanna do is create some type of opportunity where someone can push you off your, your base. You know, where they can manipulate you to feel guilty for setting a boundary. that's what people who gaslight do. That's what narcissistic people do.

Rachel: That shows that you really, really need the boundary more than ever.

Austin: So we talked about a lot of good examples. we talked about family. so just one other example, 'cause we didn't talk a ton about friendships. But, like, one boundary that you and I set is we don't meet with other people of the opposite sex one on one. Just something we don't do, you know? And so that's just a healthy boundary, and I've really never had anyone get upset over it. I've just always said, 'cause, you know, we, we just have different meetings with different people for ministry, for work, for marriage, for all kinds of stuff and we just have that boundary. we shared a lot of examples today about family, so we probably don't need to share any more about that. one other example is that, like, in ministry, you know, like, we serve in a lot of areas in the church. And one area we serve in is worship team. And, and so it's, it's easy when, you know, you're at rehearsal, and there's extra stuff to do, or songs had to change, or some people showed up late, or some people weren't prepared, or whatever.

It can be very easy to, like, ask people to stay later than when rehearsal is supposed to be over. Well, I like to avoid any of that drama and any of that frustration or tension. And so, I made agreements, and you could call it set boundaries. But I, I would call it also just making agreements very early. Like, hey, rehearsal gets done at 8:00, and I've committed to my family and my marriage that I will be home on time. So, unless there's different extenuating circumstances that Rachel and I have agreed to ahead of time, like, when the clock hits 8:00, I'm unplugging my cable, hanging my guitar up, and I'm going home. And so I set that boundary a long time ago, and it's never been a problem, thankfully like, with the worship team leadership at our church. And so that was me telling the truth about my experience. That was me, taking responsibility. Like, hey, I've committed to my family. You guys aren't doing anything wrong by stretching practice out.

Like, we, we tell our volunteers we, we encourage flexibility. So, like, but for my responsibilities and my commitments, my agreements, I need to leave here at 8:00. You know? And because of that, I've never had an issue with that, you know? And so

Rachel: And you've avoided your own personal drama of like, oh man, gotta, gotta

Austin: So with that being said, we're gonna pause real quick, and Rachel has a great nonprofit shout-out she's gonna talk about.

Rachel: All right. So today our nonprofit shout-out is our local radio station, Life 88.5. We absolutely love them, appreciate them, and what they do. Because anyone can be turning on the radio, taking a listen and being able to be encouraged. they don't just have music. There's encouraging words, prayers, you know, interaction with listeners, and our children really like Life 88.5. So I know that every time I turn on the radio, it's gonna be appropriate awesome, really life-giving content for them. So if you enjoy this episode, please go to, Life

Austin: Life88.5.com It's something like that.

Rachel: It's Life885 'cause there's not a point in there 'cause of the dot com. So Life885.com, or we have the link in the description for you to do that very easily. Go and give them a support and a shout-out.

Austin: Yes. So, your big takeaway for today, think of this as a little action item, we'd like you to think about any areas of your life where you may feel repeatedly harmed or uncomfortable or maybe even kind of betrayed, and just ask yourself, "Why have I allowed myself to be trespassed over and over, and how can I step into integrity, address the issue, and create a boundary that honors everyone involved?" Okay? Reflect on that, and consider setting some boundaries in your life so you can show up the way you wanna show up in all areas of your life, to enjoy that abundant life that God has planned for you. you might notice some stories come up or maybe some reasons about why you should feel guilty about setting boundaries. I would just encourage you to be with those, to notice those stories, and don't be afraid to push back because perfect love casts out fear. There should be no fear in love, okay? And so, if you feel like for you to better love someone, there needs to be a boundary, there probably needs to be one.

If you're having a hard time creating that, then reach out to us through our website, consciouschristianmarriage.com. we have resources for you. So thanks for watching this episode. be sure to like, comment, subscribe, all the things. We would love to hear from you. And, have a great week. we love you, we appreciate you, and we'll see you on the next one.