Christians Don't Need Counseling?

Transcribed from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are automated and may occasionally be off.

Rachel: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Conscious Christian Marriage Podcast. We're your hosts, Rachel and Austin Holt. Thank you for tuning in, and we are excited to jump into- Episode 2 of our little series we have going on here. But before we dive in, we're gonna go ahead and do appreciations.

Austin: Yeah. Rachel

Rachel: As we shake hands.

Austin: It's good to see you today. It's good to see you here. Oh, man. I have a lot of appreciations for you. it's been a crazy week, and, yeah, I, I have a lot of things I wanna appreciate you for. But number one, what I wanna appreciate you for is just how much our kids love you. And that speaks to the kind of mother you are. And in honor of Mother's Day being yesterday, I just, um I know sometimes you struggle with, like, you know, how much you think our kids love you or if they're gonna remember, you know, any tough moments, you know, that we have with them and stuff like that. But the proof is in the pudding, right? And the fruit is really what matters. And so I think the What I want you to remember as you're going about your day and life mothering is that all four I almost said five. All four of our kids

Rachel: Mm. Prophetic?

Austin: Yeah, maybe so. all four of our kids love you. They're, like, obsessed with you. But all four of our kids, they love you, they adore you. They're so thankful for you all the time. Of course, the little Malachi is just like, oh my gosh, you know, he loves you. And our

Rachel: Extra obsessed.

Austin: Yeah, yes. 'Cause, 'cause he's a boy, and you're, you have feminine energy and he loves it. But our daughters love you, and our son loves you, and I just want to appreciate you for how well you love them and how well you mother them. 'Cause at the end of the day, all, whatever mistakes you might think you're making aside, all those kids love you.

Rachel: Thanks, babe. I appreciate you, being the calm in my feminine storms. Feel like I've appreciated this multiple times.

Austin: Yeah. Probably. Yeah, that's okay.

Rachel: Many times I've appreciated this, but on this podcast. just how you've been patient with me in my emotions and reminding me of how strong I am when I'm not feeling very resilient.

Austin: Mm. You are strong.

Rachel: Thanks. I had a strong morning.

Austin: That's right. And if you're not strong enough for something, then I'll come in and be stronger for you. Don't you worry.

Rachel: Just love you.

Austin: I love you, too. Thanks for the appreciation.

Rachel: You're welcome.

Austin: And for, you know just recognizing when I am calm. 'Cause sometimes inside I'm not calm, and I'm ready to rebuke these children. 'Cause no one messes with my wife. 'Cause you're not just their mom, you're also my wife you know? So anyways, thank you.

Rachel: Thanks, babe.

Austin: All right. Well, let's jump right into it. So, just a quick recap for those of you who are maybe joining us a little midstream here. we just begun our first s we've just begun, okay? You try to use proper grammar here. We've just begun our first series, as a podcast. And so last episode, we gave a, kind of a 30,000-foot look at five mutual exclusives that we want to address here as a podcast that we think, if you will consider undoing these mutual exclusives that m maybe you find yourself a little tangled up in, we think your life and your marriage is gonna get better. And a mutual exclusive is basically two things that cannot exist together or cannot be true together, okay? So a big common one that we're not gonna address here 'cause it's not super relevant to us here but is like, you know, science and religion or science and faith, you know? You can't believe in science and faith at the same time.

Yes, you can. And I would argue that, they each validate each other if you're willing to really look, that science validates, our faith and our faith validates aspects of science, you know? And so- I have to have faith that there's gravity 'cause I have no clue that it's actually there. Like, I can't prove it really to anyone, like how it works or anything like that, you know? So I have some faith, you know? And, but, our goal is to walk you guys through five really common mutual exclusives that we see that couples struggle with, that pastors struggle with, that, I think everyday people struggle with, you know? And, and how you can find a lot of freedom in your marriage and in your personal life by going through those. So I don't know if we're gonna do it in five sequential episodes to address these five mutual exclusives, but, so there might be some episodes in between. But welcome to our first series, in, on for our podcast, so.

Rachel: We're not super rigid over here- 'cause we really do what supports us and what we're in flow with while also having a really great purpose and being purposeful. But, yeah, that's why we're like, "Who knows?"

Austin: Yeah, who knows?

Rachel: We're just gonna do

Austin: We have structure

Rachel: What the Spirit leads.

Austin: Yeah, that's right. But, but we're also very Spirit led. That's what we want we wanna be Spirit led, so.

Rachel: Planned and Spirit led, which kind of goes with today's mutual exclusive. Not really, but,

Austin: Actually, it

Rachel: Our involvement

Austin: Yeah, it really

Rachel: And the Spirit's involvement

Austin: Yeah, exactly. It really goes with, I think number four and number five big time. So just remember that.

Rachel: Depending on

Austin: All right. So Rachel, what is our first big mutual exclusive? Actually, I feel like

Rachel: We're talking about

Austin: I should intro it.

Rachel: Yeah, you like saying the sentences.

Austin: Because I know how to say it. Okay. You don't need a counselor. You need the great counselor. That's my best impression.

Rachel: Yeah, I wouldn't have gone that far. So the mindset shift here is the truth is you need both. And you can have both and you deserve to have both. And we're gonna talk about first why this mutual exclusive is dangerous. So first of all, it's dangerous for your faith, you know? If, if you've been told this or you believe this, that you don't need the great counselor Or I'm sorry, if you don't need a counselor, you need the great counselor- Likely you're going through something. We all go through difficult situations in life, and maybe you've been seeking God's help, asking for wisdom, asking for guidance from God, asking for healing from God, and you're praying and praying and praying or even doing Bible studies and reading your Bible. And then you're frustrated because you're like, "Well, I'm doing the thing that I was told and that God says he can set me free from these chains." "So why am I stuck here?" And so then these dangerous questions start to, you know, be asked of, "Well, why am I still stuck?

God do you not love me? Is God not real? can God really not heal?" You know, "Is God really not the answer to my problems? Is something else an answer to my problems?" Start looking outside of God.

Austin: Yeah, I think, I think it is dangerous as a mutual exclusive, you know, to say to someone, you know, like, "You don't need a counselor." Like, "You only need God." So like you said, like, so when our The way we're thinking God's gonna answer our prayers, when that doesn't happen and doesn't happen for a long time, it does make us ask those tough questions. You know? And maybe God all along is waiting for you to see that there's a resource that he wants you to find. You know, and a lot of times people want to tell you to avoid seeing a counselor or advise getting counsel, because they themselves who gave that advice, they don't want accountability. Or that they actually don't wanna be vulnerable with another person. You know, I think most of the time when people advise people against having confidants, you know, and advisors and counsel, it's either because they don't get it themselves and, like, maybe they, they they could be too prideful to ask for help, ask for counsel because, you know, a counselor is someone who, you know, is like a brother and sister in Christ, but they have skills.

They've been anointed. They've got biblically based and psychology based skillsets and tools to do more for you than just your, your lay friend is gonna be able to do for you. But I think anytime people advise against that it's, like, either they're not getting it and they're afraid to, or they don't want to be intimate and close with someone who could then actually hold them accountable and tell them the truth about themselves. I think that as this advice has flown down from higher places of leadership and even the pulpit, it's really based out of fear. You know? It's like, "Hey, don't go do that." Like, "You only need God." And, because they themselves are actually afraid of accountability. You know? And so it's dangerous because not only can it make us question our faith in God, like, "Okay, God, like I'm doing all the right things. Like, I'm reading my Bible, I'm praying to you." Like, is it just your goal that I suffer for the next 20 years?

You know, and people wanna act like we're supposed to be a Job. Like, they quote, you know, Job like Just because there's a story about a man named Job in the Bible that doesn't mean that everyone is supposed to be a Job. You know, that God's not gonna, you know, destroy your whole world and make you wait for all these years. you know, and we hear that advice too given from the pulpit, you know, which is like, "Well, you just gotta wait longer." You know, "Just be still and continue to wait." That could be true. There could be things that God is doing for you over time, but it could just be that you're ignoring the actual avenue of healing God wants you to look at. So again, not only does this mutual exclusive make people question their faith in even God, but it makes them question the body. Because then they read all these scriptures that talk about what the body is for. And I mean, think about the countless scriptures about advisors and counselors and re and rebuking and admonition.

You know, think about all of Paul's letters, it's like he uses the word admonition in every letter, like seven times. And that basically means to counsel, you know? And how many times rebuke is used and how many times correction is used. You know, so I think if someone reads their Bible, they're like, "It seems obvious to me that the body of Christ is supposed to be there for each other." "But yet I'm being told I don't need a counselor or a therapist or a coach. Like, I just need the great therapist." But yet the Bible is telling me that there's counsel to happen in the body, and we're gonna share scripture here in a minute about that. And so I think it can make people question being connected to the body, you know? I mean, think about what's the, one of the core issues with the church these days is people, they don't wanna be a Christian because its members don't act like what they teach, right?

And so we don't want to be misleading people in thinking, "Hey, come into the body. Read your Bible. The Bible says the body's gonna support, love, counsel, each other," and then we're gonna tell you to not do that. So I think it's dangerous because it also makes people question what's the point of the body, and what's the point of being in community with fellow Christians if only God is able to speak life into us and if, if we're not allowed to do that for each other.

Rachel: Yeah, and that's another thing I said in our last episode was God left and gave us his Holy Spirit. We have the Bible, which is where God's, you know, God's written word, right? However, he didn't stop speaking in the Bible. His Holy Spirit is still living and active and moving and speaking, and guess who he does it through? Us. He said, "It's better that I leave so that I can leave the Holy Spirit with you." And the Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost, and we have that same access to that same Holy Spirit. He hasn't changed, right? I think we've just stopped tapping into him and maybe, misrepresented him.

Austin: I

Rachel: And so, yeah, God moves through people. Like, I think about some of the greatest Holy Spirit moments in my life, they did happen, one, in church, but two, in sessions with other people. Where I was just holding space for someone, and it was God's love pouring through me. Like, I felt this indescribable love for these people. That's brings me so much joy because I know it's not of myself. Like, it's just pouring. It's like I can feel it, like it's pouring through me on this person. Like, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. but you know, it took me being willing to go down that lifestyle and that person being willing to seek help to allow God to then do that amazing work.

Austin: Yeah. Well, it, it, it and this is, we're getting right into the next point here, which is why this new story- That you can have a counselor and you can also seek the great counselor is true. Those are not mutually exclusive, okay? That, that's the kinda second point here is that you can see a counselor, a therapist, a coach. You can work with someone like Rachel and I, and you can still have great faith in God. You can rely on God and count on Him to move in your life, and you can just pick up another set of tools to help you get there. Kind of double-downing on, on, doubling down on what you're saying here, is people see God. We want them to just see God. They also see- God through mirrors, through reflections. And so people see God, and then when they go to you, like when women go to you for advi- Like if we're not working with a couple and you're just working with a woman when a woman goes to you, what you're gonna do is you're gonna reflect God to her from a different angle.

It's still gonna come through the lens of truth with scripture and all that, but she's just gonna see God through a slightly different perspective, through your perspective, okay? The, the seeing it through the different mirror, through kinda that different lens is gonna come from you, your life experiences, the stories you share, the context you share, all packaged up in the skillsets that you have to, to coach and counsel women. And so there's been so many times where in the context of that relationship, God reveals Himself through that person, and that's what's so powerful about counseling. That's what's so powerful about what we do is that we get to show people truths they might already know about God, or even they know about their marriage or their spouse. But it's just through a slightly different perspective. And sometimes, like what's one of the most common things we ever hear, you know, is like, "Oh," like, "I've encouraged" You know, like for a great example would be, you know, like if we're, if we're helping a couple where maybe the husband is dealing with anger issues or the wife might be insecure or anxious or something like that.

Or they might be having intimacy issues, et cetera. One of the most common things we hear is what? "Oh, we've been, I, I've been telling them that for years." Like- "I've been telling my wife for years that she's a resilient-" " and godly woman, and then she meets with your wife once, and now all of the sudden she believes it." And it's like, "Hey, don't feel bad about that. You planted seeds." You planted seeds this whole time for that. And, and, and, and it happened to be that Rachel came along and helped water those seeds. But she was able to water them because she could do it through a completely different framework than you have because you're her husband. And you see it through a certain way.

Rachel: And it land, just lands differently.

Austin: Yeah. Which, which goes right into, the, kind of today's key scripture, which is Proverbs 11:14. "For lack of guidance, a nation falls, but victory is won through many advisors." Okay? "For lack of guidance, a nation falls, but victory is won through many advisors." So we have God advising us, okay? Advising us through scripture, advising us through the Holy Spirit. We have the body of Christ advising us, okay? There were deacons, overseers, pastors, leaders. are all advisors, okay? And the way we show up for each other in the body of Christ, we are each other's advisors. Now, there's a difference between just a spiritual friend advisor. This is a really important distinction that people have to understand. There's spiritual advisors like pastors, and then there are trained counselors. It is different. And we just encourage everyone to operate within their skillset. Okay? If you're a pastor, but you don't have formal training of some kind in coaching or counseling, well, you And sometimes we call it limits of care, right?

We call it limits of care or scope of care, you know, like in the counseling world. And so you should know what skills you have and what skills you don't have, and you should stay within those lanes. Okay? Like, I'm not afraid to say on this podcast, like I know a lot of great people that get marriage advice from priests. They're not married. They don't have a felt sense of marriage. They don't have a felt sense of the day-to-day aspects of being married. There is a limit of how applicable that advice could be. Not that none of it is good advice, but there's a limit, okay? Just like with parenting, okay? And so I think that- I think that a priest could advise on many things, the spiritual aspect of love, unconditional love, and grace, and patience, and the things taught to us through scripture, okay? And so as we're advising each other, it's important to know what are your limits of care. What, what is your scope of care?

What can you actually do for someone? It's like there's general doctors and there's surgeons, okay? They love people the, just the same, and they can help people in different ways and at different levels. But for lack of guidance, a nation falls, but victory is won through many advisors, okay? So scripture's clear that we win by having many advisors.

Rachel: Yeah. And I love that it says many. It's not saying, like one even. Like, having a counselor, having someone, discipling you. Having someone that you, you know, really good friends that Your friends, by the way, should be people you wanna be like. Like, they should inspire you. Or I encourage them to be, instead of saying should, I encourage them to be people who inspire you, who, you know, you wanna be like, and you both wanna be like each other, and you're just growing, growing, growing, growing.

Austin: Yeah. That, and you just brought up a great point. We don't take advice from anyone we don't wanna be like. Because they actually have a felt context, felt sense, felt context of where we wanna be. And how many times do people try to correct or change or rebuke someone, not coming from a place of where that person actually wants to be?

Rachel: Yeah. It goes back to even just being unoffendable, you know, not letting something in the filter of your heart if you're like- "I don't actually wanna be like you, so I don't really, that doesn't get to my heart because that's not, that, that doesn't get to my heart." But yeah, so having good friends, having pastors, having a counselor, you know, it's all important and they all play their roles. And that's how God, you know, God will give us confirmation through multiple people. You know?

Austin: Exactly. And it's like if I care about something, okay, like let's just say that I was an athlete, okay? And I'm not really an athlete. but let's just say I was an athlete. Well, really, really successful athletes have what?

Rachel: Athlete friends? Coaches?

Austin: Yes. They have ath

Rachel: This is not scripted, guys.

Austin: Yeah, this is not scripted. They have many, they have many coaches. They might have an agility coach a strength coach, a speed coach, a

Rachel: I'm picking up what you're putting down now

Austin: Pass layout- Mm-hmm play, plan coach. I don't know what those are called. the coordinator coach, but they have lots of coaches. Okay? Mm-hmm. And so why not? Like, I love you enough, Rachel, to where why wouldn't I want two, three, four, five, six quality This is why you and I have people that coach us. Why would I not want Like- Mm-hmm our pastors speaking to us? Okay, like, just a few months ago, we had, we had lunch with our pastors. Mm-hmm. Scott and Jen, and we sat down and said, "Hey," like, "when you look at our lives, the, how we're serving at church, how we're engaging at church and all that, where do you want us to be? Do you think we're in the right spots? Do you want us to shift around?" Mm-hmm. Like, "What, what can you tell us?" Like, we want them to advise us. Okay? Mm-hmm. We have people, counselors, that c that counsel us. And so And then we have very close friends that hold us accountable.

Okay? Mm-hmm. And we have people that, that work for us and work with us that are holding us accountable. Why wouldn't we want that? Mm-hmm. Like, I love you so much to where I want multiple people looking at me so that Because I, I'm too close to me. I can't always see. I can't always be objective about myself. Yeah. But I love you enough to be humble, coachable, honest, be told difficult things- Mm-hmm be held accountable by people because I love you that much. I cherish you that much, that I wanna be the best husband I can be for you, so why wouldn't I want multiple advisors? Yeah. And, and this, this brings us to kinda the second point of why the new story, which is you can have a counselor, and you can go to the great counselor at the same time, is that- Yeah think about the story in Mark of when the disciples lower the man in through the roof to get to Jesus.

Mm-hmm. Okay, think about that for a minute. If he didn't have friends who were willing to come and help him- Yeah how would he have been lowered through the roof? He couldn't even move. Yeah. Okay? Those friends could've been like, "You just need to see the great counselor," and walked away. Ex exactly. They could've been like, "Hey, man, I, we realize that you're still laying here almost dead, still really sick. Like, you probably haven't been calling out to the great counselor enough." Yeah. You should pray harder. And then the guy's like, "What? Guys," you know? Like, "Why would you do that to me?" Okay? Mm-hmm. They didn't do that to him. They were like, "Hey, we love you." Yeah. "We're gonna come alongside you." Uh-huh. Okay? "And we're gonna use our faith, and we're gonna use our works. We're gonna use our effort." Mm-hmm. Yeah. "And we're gonna, no matter what it freaking takes, we're, we'll, we'll cut a hole through a roof and lower you through it if we have to.

Ha ha ha," and then they did. Right. You know? So then they lowered him through the roof, okay? If all that man was supposed to do was only go to the great counselor, how would he have been brought to Jesus? Yeah. Because I wanna make sure this is super clear, and I, I, I hope this is super clear. We're not saying don't go to Jesus and God as your great- Right counselor. Yeah. We're saying do that. We're saying do that, and if you feel the Holy Spirit convicts you to also find a counselor- Mm-hmm find a coach, find a therapist, find that person because you get both. Yeah. Okay? It's kinda like saying, "Eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich." here's a better example 'cause I don't eat those. It's like eating a steak with only salt and not pepper, too. Mm-hmm. Why not have salt and pepper? Even better. Much more pleasurable experience. It is much more Yeah, yeah, 'cause then you get the saltiness from the salt, which is, seems obvious as I say it out loud, but then you get that nice heat- Uh-huh from the cracked pepper right on the steak.

Mm. Why wouldn't you want both? Flavor. You get to enjoy You get to enjoy life. Yeah. You get access to all the tools that are available to you. Going, going to God in prayer, that's a tool. Bible, that's a tool. Holy Spirit, praying the Holy Spirit would descend upon you and work in your life, that's a tool. The Church, that's a tool. The body of Christ, community, and going to people that are anointed, okay? Mm-hmm. Which is what we're gonna talk about here next. Going to people that are anointed to help you. Mm-hmm. That's another amazing tool. Okay, which, side note to the story about the disciples lowering the man through the roof, your circle matters. So, like, everyone- Yeah who's watching this, like, just as a side note- Mm-hmm your circle matters. You want friends that if you, that if something happened to you, they would cut a hole through a roof and lower you down to be with Jesus. And then what did Jesus say?

Because of their faith- Mm-hmm you've been healed. You've, you, you have been forgiven. Yeah. Okay? Like, have friends that their faith is so powerful that it would cause God's hand to move- Mm-hmm in your life. Yeah. You know? That's, like- I like that I, that's just incredible. So, and the third point here is that your mental and emotional health, which is really where the counseling, therapy, coaching world comes into play, it's just like your physical health. Okay? If you're injured, you can pray that God would heal your leg, but God would not want you to forgo seeking medical treatment. Right. Okay? Like, so for example, if you have, like, a crazy blood-borne illness, I wouldn't want you to just pray, "Hey, God, please remove this, you know, terrible illness from my blood." God would not want you to not go use the resources he's anointed other people with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because healers have been anointed by God to heal. Yeah. Just like doctors. Like, we love doctors and nurses.

Like, oh my gosh. Like, we've had- Mm four kids. Like, being surrounded by hospital staff- They're angels they're angels. They're selfless. Yeah. like, and it's just like their everyday job, and I'm there, like, crying 'cause they just- Yeah delivered our kids or saved my wife's life- Thank you so much on the table. Yeah. You know? And it's like, "Wow, you're amazing. Like, you're amazing people." Mm-hmm. God anointed them to heal you, to heal your body, to protect your body, to, to help you stay safe, and to s and to keep your body functioning, okay? Mm-hmm. And- They've dedicated their lives to that yeah, they've dedicated their lives to that. Yeah, they've studied it for years. And, and so you could pray that God would help heal you physically, but also, God would not want you to not- Mm-hmm go be with someone he anointed to help heal you, and your emotions and your mental health are the exact same thing. Mm-hmm. God anointed people, equipped them, convicted them to go get skills, to go get training, to go get education- Mm-hmm okay?

To go be mentored so that they can also come alongside you. So just like you'd pray, "God, please take my anxiety away," he would not want you to forgo working with other people that are anointed to help you solve your anxiety. Mm-hmm. 'Cause then you look at all the things you have working for you. You're praying. Mm-hmm. You're in the word. You're being counseled, mentored by someone who knows how to help you get rid of your anxiety, how to at least manage- Yeah to get rid of your anxiety. You're using every tool available, okay? Nations win when they have many advisors. Mm-hmm. All right, so beyond the biblical example- Mm-hmm that we just talked about from Mark, where Jesus lowered the disciples in, Rachel, what would be- Maybe a personal example or story where someone we know or someone we've worked with has found a lot of, consolation, healing, et cetera, in both going to the great counselor and also seeking out counseling or help.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, one of my friends, you know, she grew up in a home that didn't have Jesus, a lot of painful experiences. She has a lot of trauma from that. but in college she became a Christian. She found Christ. She went all in. She's been all in ever since, and, you know, for a while she was just all in, and God did a work in her life and, you know, that was the best decision she ever made, but there were still things that over, you know, years she started realizing, like, "Hey, I'm still struggling with these things. These things are still painful. This is showing up here. This is showing up here." And so she chose to go to a counselor, and she's been going to a counselor for a while now and experiencing, you know, a lot of leaps and bounds in that healing, and even just learning how to navigate relationships with her family and relationships with, you know, her kids as, as she becomes a mom and, you know, having experienced some trauma as a child.

So, yeah, she's a great example of that because now she's able to just be a conduit of Jesus's love so much more. There's not, a blockage, you know? Like, when we have trauma and we have pain, that's unresolved or things that are subconsciously calling the shots that we don't really know or we haven't figured out or healed, we're limiting what God can do through us. And so she's a great example because she is now doing so much. She is such a person of love and joy, and the more healed she becomes, the more effective she is. I can say this in my own life too. Like, same thing. You know, for a long time I didn't, you know, I didn't seek counseling or even I was kind of blind to my own trauma, until I got married.

Austin: Aw.

Rachel: Then I realized, oop, there's some things.

Austin: Oop, oop, something there.

Rachel: Oopsie daisy. And but the more that I've seeked counsel, the more that I've done work with you, which is amazing, have a built-in counselor

Austin: Bam

Rachel: So that's awesome, and outside of you. But the more that I've worked through things that have been painful for me, the more that I become healed, the more effective I am. Like, I couldn't be here on this podcast without having done that. You know, I cannot help other people if I'm not first willing to allow other people to help me so that God can just flow more freely through me. So it's both. Yeah. so she's a great example of that. I experience that so much in my life.

Austin: Well, and I- I know who you're talking about, I'm pretty sure, and it was a really powerful moment when she just kind of decided like, "I love God. I have faith in God, and while I'm waiting for God to just continue to, to do a work in my life, I'm gonna respond to the responsibility God gives me to," or, "I'm going to respond to the responsibility that God has given me to participate with him." You know, to co-create with God. You know, if we're made in His image, and God's first image to us was a creator, you know, God wants to work with us, you know? And like you say, you know, when we love, and if, if God is love and we love, then we're, we're constantly partnering with God in the world. 'Cause every time anyone loves anyone, they're partnering with God, which is pretty cool. If we believe that God is love then when someone loves someone, they're partnering with God to do something.

And so, she made a decision to partner with God, you know, and say, "Okay, God, like, I'm gonna praise it. It depends on you. I'm gonna work like it depends on me," and those two things are gonna meet somewhere. And now because of that, she has a really successful marriage and successful kids and, and, and walks with, with God daily. And, the story I would share, might kind of feel a little bit heavier, but I really, I really wanna share it. So, there's a, a gentleman who, I very much respect and, this is a, a pretty prominent, pastoral figure, someone that a lot of people would know this person's name if I said it, someone who has pastored pastors and pastored men and has just played a really pivotal role in a lot of, of what I would consider major church advancement all across the, all across the world really. And, someone who grew up in the church, grew up in a home of pastors, grew up in a community of pastors, and someone who is not foreign to a deep, intimate relationship with God.

Very knowledgeable of the word, very knowledgeable of, of scripture and our church history and all those things.

Rachel: And you respect him a lot.

Austin: And just, yeah, someone I, I respect dearly. someone that, you know, I would take a bullet for without, you know, hesitating. And, and so, this is someone who I've had the honor of, being a advisor type, role, okay, in this person's life, just like the scripture in the Proverbs says, you know, many advisors. This person's also humble enough and coachable enough to have many advisors and, beyond just me. And so and so one day, he called me and I could tell that something was going on. he was really struggling, and he shared with me that, he was having these, like, visions or dreams where he was killing himself. And he was like, "I don't know what to do with this. Like, I, I don't wanna kill myself, or at least I don't think I wanna kill myself." "Like, I've been praying about this. I've been, I, I've been, like, lamenting to God. Like, God, take these dreams away. I keep having these dreams." And, but he felt like God told him to reach out to me.

And so, so we began working together o on this, and what I helped him realize, was that where he did not want to kill himself, but he felt like he was killing himself with how much work, how much stress, how much pressure, how much anxiety was building up that he wasn't dealing with. And what I helped him explain, helped explain to him was that his psyche was serving up images to him to get him to pay attention. It could've been his psyche serving up the images. It could've been the Holy Spirit serving up images to him, but in his sleep, his, his what was happening was there were images being produced inside his mind of him killing himself, and it kind of woke him up. Okay? Not, no pun intended, it woke him up. It made him realize like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "what the heck is happening? I, I, I should probably go get some help." And he did. So he came to me, and I helped him understand that.

I'm like, "Look, look, bro- I don't think you wanna kill yourself, but I think a part of your unconscious mind knows that you're, you're kinda killing yourself right now. Your stress level's to the max, your work is to the max. Like, the pressure in your marriage is to the max. Like, the load you're carrying on your shoulders is to the max. And I, I walked him through this exercise to help him understand his stress, and he was able to articulate to me that he felt like his stress was like a truckload of bricks on his chest. and then i in, in another, session we talked about how he felt like he had these super heavy chains around his neck, and he couldn't quite pick his head up. It just helped him, helped walk him through some steps to help him recognize where he felt like he was killing himself. So we, we then made some tactical adjustments in his life, and he was able to pretty much a instantaneously end these dreams.

And so was that all me? No. Okay? it wasn't. It was three things at play. It was the goodness of God, the Holy Spirit convicting him, leading him to g to ask Him for help. Two, it was his willingness, coaching, his willingness, being coachable, and all that to ask for help and to receive help. And then three, it was me being willing to say yes and be used by God, in a very prayerful, very biblical, way. And so it took those three things. could God have just snapped His fingers and brought him out of it? Yes, 100%. But guess what? Now he actually has the ability to speak into other people's lives based on his experience. And because this person is such a prominent, powerful leader, there's so many men coming to him for advice that God could have just snapped His fingers and said, "Oh, yeah, I'll just heal you of this. Ha ha, move on." But instead, He was like, "Hey, I want, I want you to participate with me."

And because he did, now he can speak to other men. He can pour into their lives in a different way. and that has increased his testimony. Okay? And think about scripture, think about Paul, you know, where sin abounds, grace abounds even more, okay? Because God wants to strengthen our testimony so that we can be more available and have more tools in our toolkits to help other people. So in my mind, perfect example, he grew up maybe more with the mentality of only seek the great counselor, but as he's grown and as God has worked on his heart, he's willing to go, "How can I partner with a great counselor, and how can I also find a counselor that God has anointed to help me?" And when all those forces came together, he was able to just 180 things. A a and I wanna make sure I just give a quick s disclosure here. if you're someone who's wrestling with any type of suicidal thought, whether it's a dream or not, whether you think it's real or not, sincere or not, you need to, to reach out to someone immediately that can help you, okay?

You can reach out to us, and if, and, and then if we're not able to work with you right now, we can refer you to somewhere. there's also the, the National Suicide Hotline. there's probably a counselor or therapist, in your area that can work with you, anything relating to suicide. I just wanna make sure that's, that's super clear. but I t but I, I really do believe that at the end of the day, like, at least in this situation, he did not want to kill himself, but his brain knew the only way, and maybe his Holy Spirit, the only way to get him to pay attention was to show him these images, show him these thoughts, show him these dreams, to be like, "Hey, wake up. What you're doing right now isn't working." "Your load is too heavy. Your stress is too high. Slow down and pay attention, okay, to the signs that I'm " That God saying this to him, "Slow down and see the signs that I'm giving you, that you need help.

You need respite," okay?

Rachel: And if God would've just, like, snapped His fingers and, and healed this person, then there wouldn't be that lesson. Like you said he wouldn't have learned and experienced the felt sense of connecting the dots. So now he is more able, more equipped and more qualified to speak on the matter and he wouldn't have had that. And that's, that's what we, you know, we've said a lot, is, like, God wants us to learn the lesson. So if He's not healing you, there's a reason. You know?

Austin: Yeah. And, and, you know, I wanna say this too. That's not the only conversation I've had with a well-known pastor struggling with the exact same thing. So, like, those of you out there, especially pastors we know the pressure you face, and we know it's high. And we know there's not a lot of resources, for pastors to be able to tell the truth, to be honest with, to be able to admit how difficult the struggle is because pastors don't wanna lose the pulpit. It, and there's a very real fear there that if people know how human I am and they know where I'm struggling, then I'll lose all my leadership, and then what ends up happening later is the pressure gets too high, and then pop, and then there's a moral failure. Don't get to that point. W we can help you. We have other resources that can help you. We have other people on our team that can help you. Pastors, leaders, executives, et cetera, a anyone.

We know the pressure's high. Don't face it alone, okay? There are people that will love you, that will honor you, that will help coach you through a process, that will help you find healing. 'Cause again, the story I just shared was not the only one. That's not the only time I've been on the phone with a pastor telling me that they had either dreams or ideations or thoughts about suicide, because the pressure is so high. So if that's you, you were supposed to listen to this episode today, so you should go to the contact form on our website, fill it out, get in touch with one of us. I'll get on the phone with you immediately, and we'll see what the right next step is for you. That's just a little aside there that I felt called to say.

Rachel: It's interesting. I was looking for stats for something else before this episode. And I did find some staggering stats on pastors of just how alone they feel, how they can't reach out. Like- 80% feel like they can't, look you know, like they have imperfections. Like 80%. and most pastors are working 55 to 75 hours a week. Like

Austin: Yeah, and again they, they don't believe that they can tell the deepest truth about where they're at because they might lose the pulpit. And, and I, and I, some, I think if we're assuming the worst in a pastor, that's, like, a pride thing, but it's, it's, it's a legitimate fear thing. It's like they feel called to to preach. I just talked to a guy today that, about us doing a big marriage event for their church, and, but they want us to also do some coaching for their leadership. and, and, and helping their pastoral team and their lay leadership team, be able to engage people on these things at a higher level but also to have some accountability and some healing for themselves. because I've just had too many, too many conversations with people who have had moral failures, that if they just had accountability with people that love them- They wouldn't have gone there, you know? And I even think about, about when I was an associate pastor and we had our leadership team.

You know, do you remember the PAP, calling the PAP? I know, it's kind of a funny name, whatever.

Rachel: I probably blocked that from my memory.

Austin: The pastor yeah, the pastor's accountability partner. Remember? We had someone on our team that was checking in on us. And it was also checking on, on me, primarily on me, to make sure that, like, I wasn't struggling with something that I was doing okay, I wasn't burnt out, I wasn't, you know, that I wasn't on the verge of some even small moral issue. And that was a conversation I had every single week with this person. And it really helped me, 'cause I knew that I was gonna have that conversation with that person that week. So any backsliding my, you know, brain was subconsciously trying to get me to, I knew that a good man of God was gonna quiz me on that at the end of the week and see how I was doing. And so, that's something that we c we've created, that we, have helped other people implement in their organizations, and so, that's something we could also talk about here. But, that's another, another, another episode.

So all that to say, if you're struggling, anyone, people, laypeople, church leaders, pastors reach out and get help, okay? You can It will not be a reflection of your faith to ask for help, 'cause that's another piece of this that we didn't even mention, that we've mentioned so many other times before, I just felt like it was redundant, but too many times Christians will not ask for help about their marriage, about their mental health because they're afraid people will think, "Oh, well, if they were a better Christian, they wouldn't be struggling." That's just not true. Okay? The best Christians I know are the ones that have called me at 10 o'clock at night saying, "I'm struggling." "I'm struggling and I need help. I've been praying, I've been reading my Bible, and I'm still struggling. What do we do?" Those are the best Christians I know. The best people I know are willing to ask for help, because pastors are not perfect. They're just like us.

Okay? And they have a higher calling, a higher responsibility. Look at the instructions in the Bible about the qualifications for overseers and deacons and pastors, and I, I really believe that. They're still gonna struggle. So if you're struggling out there, the most honoring thing you can do is, if you do everything as if you do unto the Lord, is to be humble, to be coachable, to be teachable, to be willing. Ask for help. We will help you. And if not us, someone like us, okay? So all right, so Rachel, I'm gonna have you shout out today's nonprofit.

Rachel: Yeah. So today's nonprofit is called Young Faith in Christ, and this is a special ministry to us because one of our very own, Fairlight Renaud, l serves in this ministry. She is a mentor. So what this ministry does, Young Faith in Christ, they have a Bible club and a m mentoring program for youth where, basically you can serve, one hour a week. I don't know if it's more, but, a lot of people will serve one hour a week where they mentor, troubled teens or youth that, just need someone to encourage them, to help them along in the Lord, and F

Austin: Like counsel them?

Rachel: Y yes.

Austin: So they need, like, a great counselor and a counselor.

Rachel: Austin.

Austin: That's what YFC's doing? Did we pair this up on purpose? 'Cause it's perfect.

Rachel: I know. You're funny. so yeah, we're, we love Fairlight. We love what they're doing. she's actually taken our connection cards and used just the response card. so if you don't know what the connection cards are, it's a game that we invented. You can find them on our website, but she's used that and taken it into their organization to help just because she's like, "These conversations are so great."

Austin: Yeah, just to help.

Rachel: "I want to share this with our youth." so she's printed that for them at different events that they've had. so she's doing really cool work there, and we appreciate you, Fairlight. We're not gonna tell her about this

Austin: We're, yeah

Rachel: Until she listens, so

Austin: Yes, big surprise

Rachel: It's gonna be fun.

Austin: But yeah, check out yfcparkland.org. That's yfcparkland.org. We'll have a link in the comments. And guys, please stop what you're doing pause this episode, go to the website, kick over 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 bucks, because this organization really is being, the hands and feet of Christ. And, y- I, I know it sounds like five bucks doesn't matter, but it does.

Rachel: Yeah, it does.

Austin: Okay? Five, $5, could actually be the difference between someone having, like, a one-day, one-moment type experience with God and not. So check out yfcparkland.org. they're amazing. Okay, so today's big action item is we want you guys to check out our membership program. And we have a very special opportunity for you, so don't stop listening. You gotta listen closely to get the coupon code, okay?

Rachel: We're not putting it in the description.

Austin: We're not putting it in the description, okay? we try not to push a lot of our products or services or, or things like that on this podcast. We really just wanna give you guys value. And I know sometimes, you know, we kind of probably indirectly shout ourselves out and what we do, but we're just really pumped about what we do and the people we get to help, and so and what God is having us do. And, and we really believe in what we do, and we belie we will not pander you or pander anyone listening to this episode. Like, if you're a driven Christian, and, and, and if you're a married Christian and you want your life, your marriage, your faith your health, wealth, relationships, all those things to get better, you need counseling. You need counsel. You need advisors. You need community with other like-minded people

Rachel: Good community

Austin: That are rising this tide together. that's something that we have. just this morning at 7:30 AM, I had a coaching call with all the husbands, and it was just an amazing call, and we started off our week, with recentering ourselves around God, around our marriage, around our integrity. Rachel's gonna have a call like that with all the wives today at 12:30. This Thursday night at 8:00, we're gonna have a, a couples training where there's gonna be couples from all over the country on a Zoom call together, and we're gonna do these epic trainings together that's gonna help them grow in their marriages. this program is something that we have validated over many years, and we're very passionate about it. And so your action item is to check out this program, okay? It's basically like counseling, coaching, community, even pastoring all in one. And it can be purchased for the price of not going out to dinner a couple times in one month or just barely tweaking your finances to make it work. it, it's, it's actually about the cost of one good counseling session, with a really, really good counselor every month.

And so- We really encourage you guys to check out this program. And for listening to this episode okay, we're gonna give you guys a really, really great coupon code for 50% off your first month to try out our program. 50% off. And the coupon code is, you gotta listen really closely, crank up the, the volume- 'cause I don't want people in the next room to hear me. It's E as in elephant, P as in Peter, one, five. So E, P, number one, number five. That's

Rachel: Like episode 15

Austin: Episode 15. 'Cause this is our 15th episode. We don't

Rachel: EP 15.

Austin: Woo. Raise the roof. so if you wanna check, check out our program, and I would highly encourage you do. And we have a full money back guarantee. If you, if you, if you join and you don't love it, we call it our 300%- guarantee. If you do 100% of what we say 100% of the time, and you don't 100% love the program, we'll give you 100% of your money back. That's 400%. That's 400%. So we have a 400% money back guarantee. but we are very confident that if you show up and plug in you'll love it. And you will meet some of the most amazing people that have ever walked the planet in this program.

Rachel: All our good friends.

Austin: Yeah, that's right, yeah. Like, all, all of our besties. EP15, EP 15, that's the coupon code. We're gonna put a link in the description below, and 50% off.

Rachel: All right.

Austin: 50% off. All right. So we love you guys. Thank you for watching this episode. Thank you for being engaged in this podcast. I hope you see our hearts in everything that we say and everything that we do. Our goal is to change the world one marriage at a time, and to see God's love and the kingdom of God just advanced in this world and to transform marriages and families and communities all through, leveling up marriages and, and leveling up ourselves, so that we can be used by God, we can be used in our marriages, used for the kingdom, and everything wonderful that comes along with that. So.

Rachel: Amen. All right, until next time. Love you all.

Austin: See ya.