The Silent Killer in Your Marriage

Transcribed from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are automated and may occasionally be off.

Rachel: Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Conscious Christian Marriage podcast. We are your hosts, Rachel and Austin Holt, and we are so glad that you are tuning in either for the first time or coming back again. Thank you for being here.

Austin: Whoo. Yeah. Glad you guys are here. We have a fun episode, planned for today.

Rachel: I think we say that every time.

Austin: We say that every episode.

Rachel: It's gonna be a blast.

Austin: And, and we're gonna keep doing it. We're gonna keep doing it 'cause

Rachel: 'Cause we're having fun, so we hope you're having fun. but today's episode is called The Silent Killer in Your Marriage. We did go with a little bit of a clickbait-y title. But it is actually really true that this particular thing that we're going to teach you on today will have a really big impact in your marriage when you become conscious of it and you're aware of it. Then you'll be able to recognize it, and you'll be able to really create more connection between you and your spouse. Hopefully after this episode just, just bringing it to your awareness alone is a really big deal. So we really hope that this episode blesses you. And we'll jump right in.

Austin: Yeah. And before we jump right in, we'll do appreciations. You almost forgot.

Rachel: Juicy.

Austin: Juicy. I'm not even gonna edit that out. Yeah. I'll go first. Rachel, one thing I really appreciate about you is how much you have grown in our marriage when it comes to just being able to be present with, like, big emotions. and maybe even more than big emotions, just being present with intensity and knowing that you don't have to take it personally. And you can just, like Like, so for me, like, like, like if there's times where, like, everything's kinda crazy, the kids are crazy, everyone's screaming, everyone's freaking out, and if I ever have to be, like, kinda tense with the kids, you know, like, "Hey, children. Hey. Whoo," and get their attention, "Hey." Sometimes, like, that intensity, I know, you know, when you were younger, there was a lot of intensity. And then over a lot of years that was real difficult for you. And over the years you have just become, incredible at, being able to be in the presence of intensity and not osmose it, or take responsibility for it, you know?

And so, I just really appreciate that over the last few weeks, like, in a lot of intense moments with the kids, and, like, with our home build, and all the different things that we're doing right now, like, you have just been really gracious. And you've held space, like, for me as I've just kinda processed and, you know, kinda dealt with my stuff. And, and the kids have just been Bonkersville. And, and you've just been really I've just noticed that even in times where I have felt like I've had to be intense or have, like, some tone, like, with the kids, or just in, in our environment you've just been like, "Okay," like, "All right, so how can I support you?" Like, "What do you need?" Like, "I got this." Like, and I really appreciate that, so, 'cause it's very healing for me knowing that you can love me in the midst of, you know, when I have, like, my big masculine, you know feelings come up and stuff like that.

So just appreciate you for that.

Rachel: Yeah. Thank you. I receive that. And my appreciation is similar in the last couple weeks.

Austin: Sorry. Was probably getting that.

Rachel: I stuck my hand out. For those listening, I stuck my hand out and he just, like, shook it, 'cause I was just, like, sticking it up.

Austin: It looked like you wanted to shake my hand. It was just really cute. And I just wanna touch your pretty little hands.

Rachel: Go hello, masculine hand. okay, so it's been similar. I can't do that hand motion anymore.

Austin: Sorry, every time you do it now, I just wanna shake your hand.

Rachel: I'm gonna wave my hand over to the side. It's been similar.

Austin: He's got you.

Rachel: He's high-fiving me now. Okay. ah, good thing we like to have fun. Ah. Okay. My appreciation for you , along the same lines, is these situations that you're referring to, I know God has been challenging your faith in him, your faith in, God's timing for things, God pr- God's provision for things, his purpose for things. And as there have been difficult moments, you've been leaning into them, and I do appreciate that you've expressed your emotions to me. And, you know, we've been able to have really good, meaningful conversation. And from that, like, the last 24 hours, God has done crazy, cool things.

Austin: Oh, my gosh. I know.

Rachel: I know it's all, all been in the works, but we had a baptism event last night. This amazing girl that you've just met through,

Austin: Going to the g

Rachel: Literally going to a gas station

Austin: Going to the gas station.

Rachel: Yeah. Like, you just, you being yourself and God shining through you, she came to our church. I built a relationship with her, in two weeks, by the way. Within two weeks, not of you meeting her but of her coming to church. She got baptized, and last night was just this crazy high. And I appreciate you, because that's been an answer to my prayers of, like, I just always wanna see God move more. I'm like, "God, I wanna see you move. I wanna feel just more of your presence, more of your Like, I wanna witness more of your miracles." And, I was just telling Ashley about that m this morning. Like, it's an answer to prayer, the last 24 hours, of everything that God has done. And the presence that I felt, in, like, from the Lord in that special way has been really, really cool. And a lot of it is thanks to you and your leadership and the way that you love people and live out the calling.

I know this is a long appreciation. But I mean it all, and I wanna say it all. You living out the calling of being a minister of the gospel, like, you don't have to go to Africa, which going to Africa is great but you don't have to do that. In fact, if we're not doing that at home, we don't really have business doing that elsewhere

Austin: Yeah. I would agree

Rachel: Because we are surrounded by hurting people, and people who need Jesus, and people who just wanna know that they're loved and they're seen. And you do that really well, and I have so much fun being your wife and getting to be a part of that with you. And so

Austin: Thank you

Rachel: Thank you. There's a lot of appreciations in there, but just

Austin: And I receive them all.

Rachel: Hopefully they landed.

Austin: That was like a shotgun appreciation, you know?

Rachel: Just ch, ch, ch, ch.

Austin: Yeah. I love it. I like that. Ch, ch, ch.

Rachel: I'm feeling grateful. Feeling good.

Austin: All right. Well, thank you, babe. All right. So again, Rachel said, today's episode is, titled The Silent Killer in Your Marriage. And, really today is going to be about withholding. And so one question we get all the time is, you know, how do you know when you're withholding? You know, just in general. Like, not in You know, not just even in marriage, even though today's gonna be really marriage-focused. But, like, in your marriage, in relationships, like, how do you know when you're withholding? what all do you need to share? What all is okay to share? At what point is it not worth sharing? I think there's a lot of bad marriage advice out there that talks about, like, even Like, I get the idea of don't sweat little things. If you can not sweat a little thing and it doesn't affect your connection, that's fine. But if you, if you sweat a little thing and it affects your connection, it's a big thing. It might as well be a huge thing.

You know? And so we get this question all the time of, like, trying to figure out the balance because, like, you go through a thousand things a day, like thoughts, situations, scenarios conversations, text messages, phone calls, emails, what you eat, what you don't eat, when you feel cold, when you don't feel cold. Like, you go through so many things every day and you could share every single one of those things with me. And so, I think a lot of people just wanna know, like, well, what do I need to share? How do I know when I need to share it? You know?

Rachel: Yeah. And so to def to back up a little bit and say withholding would be not sharing. So withholding from your spouse would be you're not telling your spouse something, you're keeping it to yourself, usually because of a story that you make up. Like, again, maybe it's too trivial. The story might be, "I can handle this on my own," or, "That's not that important." But then subconsciously throughout the day, it might actually affect you. And we're gonna talk about how it will affect you and how it affects your connection.

Austin: Yeah. And those stories are all, are so interesting because they could be I'd be a bad wife if I share this or I'd be a bad husband if I share this, or they would be frustrated at me, or maybe I'd get in trouble, you know, or maybe they'd think I'm pathetic or, you know, a good

Rachel: Or I'm having such a good day- I don't wanna mess it up.

Austin: Yeah, or a good spouse wouldn't say this. You know? That, that type of thing. And so when people ask us this question of, how do you know when you need to share something, it really comes down to this: Does the thing you're considering sharing affect the connection in any way, shape, or form? Does it affect the connection? Like, if I If, if basically I had tea or coffee or water in this cup today, me whether I tell you that or not wouldn't really affect our connection. Like, so there's no Withholding's not really a question in that.

Rachel: Unless it was we made an agreement that you were not gonna drink coffee- 'cause you wanted to be healthier not have caffeine or whatever. And you didn't want me to know that you had messed

Austin: Which I just wanna make sure that's clear we have not made that agreement.

Rachel: Yes, we have not.

Austin: That, that I do drink

Rachel: I'm just making it up

Austin: I do drink coffee. Yes, I do.

Rachel: I'm making it up.

Austin: Yeah, I do, I do drink coffee. But recently in the last 30 days, or 30 days ago, I made a very conscious intention to have way less caffeine. So I went from like, you know, 4 to 500 milligrams a day to like

Rachel: Ooh

Austin: Maybe 40 or 50, and actually now my caffeine tolerance is so low, like I can barely finish this cup. Anyways yeah, so that wouldn't affect our connection, you know? But, like, let's just said that we were getting ready this morning and I think maybe you handled something with the kids improperly or something like that. And I wanted to say something or I wanted to share a feeling I had about that, and I didn't. And then for the rest of the day, it, it, it changed the way I connected or related to you. That's the type of thing that you deserve to know. Because what you don't deserve is for me to be a moving target for you. You know? Because when we withhold, we distance ourselves, and we're, we're gonna talk about this more in a second, but when we withhold, we distance ourselves, and then it becomes hard to connect. And we kind of, kind of become this moving target, and it's not fair.

It's One, it's not fun for me to have this moving target connection with you, but it's also not fair to you if there's something that I'm withholding from you and then I'm blaming you for it for the rest of the day, and then I'm taking it out on you to justify why I didn't share it with you. And most of this is unconscious, right? And so here at The Conscious Christian Marriage, our goal is to help you approach things that you used to approach unconsciously and help you approach, approach them consciously. And so today we're gonna share here after a couple scriptures, we're gonna share what the unconscious pattern looks like and then what the conscious pattern looks like. Okay. So we have two scriptures we wanna share just about withholding, and the whole reason we wanna share these scriptures on withholding is so that listeners today can understand the emotional, spiritual, mental, and physical toll that withholding can take on somebody. Because when we withhold a lot of things actually happen.

There is a bottlenecking. There's a blockage. There's, there's a block in our spirit, in our heart, mind, soul, and strength, you know? And so there's been a lot of times even when we've worked with couples, and even when we've just worked with individuals, where You know, I remember one time we worked with someone that, got, migraines all the time. You know? And I knew, and they'd flushed out all these different medical directions and other, and other diagnosises and scans and reports and minerals, vitamin deficiencies, all that. None of that really, you know, proved out to be attributing to the headaches. And I remember we just said, "Hey, like, is there something that you're withholding about?" And this person recognized there was, shared what they were withholding, and the headaches ended right then and there. Because she was holding it inside, and that dis-ease of the mind, of the heart turned into a disease of the body and, manifested itself as a headache. I mean, there are s so many clinically validated paths you could study this on.

That's a different conversation, but there's two scriptures we wanna share that I think are really powerful. I'll share Proverbs, and maybe you can share- Psalms. So Proverbs 28:13 says, "Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper. But he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy." Okay? Think about that for a sec. Whoever conceals transgressions will not prosper. 'Cause a lot of times what we're withholding, what we're concealing is generally what the story we're telling ourself is it's a transgression, so we're not telling. Right? but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. And when I think of mercy, man, I just think of so many other adjectives along that vein. Like, when someone's merciful with me, it's like it gives me peace, it gives me grace. I feel loved. You know?

Rachel: It's the gospel. All right, this other scripture is Psalms 32:3. "When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long."

Austin: Now just pause real quick. So who can identify with that? This idea of, like, you know there's something that you want to share that would benefit sharing, that would probably make you feel really connected to your spouse and you know you're not sharing it with them. What does that feel like?

Rachel: Oof.

Austin: It feels like my bones are wasting away. This, and of course, this is David, you know kind of lamenting here, right? And I think everyone knows that feeling. I know I know that feeling, when there's something I haven't shared that I know if I did it would change how you and I connect. And that, there's that feeling, that internal feeling of turmoil.

Rachel: Agony. Yeah, turmoil.

Austin: Yeah, agony. Yeah.

Rachel: That's good. So verse four, "For day and night your hand was heavy on me. My strength was sapped as in the heat of summer. When I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity, I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,' and you forgave the guilt of my sin." Yeah. Good.

Austin: So there's something hidden in there, really powerful on that last verse, "And you forgave the guilt of my sin." So guilt is this kind of combo emotion of anger and fear. Okay? Because we're angry about what happened, what we did, angry with ourselves for our guilt, you know, for our mistakes, 'cause guilt is about behavior. Shame is about identity. So, "And you forgave the guilt of my sin," you forgave, so I no longer had to feel this anger towards myself, and I no longer had to feel fear about what God was gonna think of me. Because guilt is a combo of anger and fear. Shame is a combo of sadness and fear. And so I love how David's talking about, "When I kept silent, I was in pain, but when I spoke up," okay, not only did God forgive him, but God- God also helped correct his dis-ease. He helped him resolve that anger with himself, helped him resolve the fear of what might happen, okay?

Because a lot of us withhold from our spouse because we're afraid of what might happen if we're actually forthcoming.

Rachel: And David had a lot of things to be weighed down upon.

Austin: Man, what a, what a theological, relational, interpersonal conundrum- David was. You know? Just, just thinking about, like, the Line of Judah, David, you know, Jesus obviously being born into that line as, as, you know, the, the prophet said, and, and just thinking about, like, it's be so easy to judge David. You know? And one thing we teach a lot, like, in our models here is our judgments always hide our projections. So it's like, when I judge David, like, how could David be a leader? You know, he, he, he, he made this woman

Rachel: He's not perfect.

Austin: Yeah, he, he, he, he convinced this woman to, you know, have an affair with him, and then sent her husband to the battlefield to die.

Rachel: Shooting.

Austin: And, and I'm like, and then of course I'm like, "All right, so I'm judging David for something. What have I done that's similar?" You know? Like, what terrible thing? Which I haven't done that. But I, but I've, but I've done, you know, things, right? So it's like, man, like, where in my life did I do something out of integrity? Where, how did I try to cover it up? You know? 'Cause that's what he did. He had integrity breach, and then he tried to cover his tracks.

Rachel: Yeah, that's a lot.

Austin: You know? So David, yeah, it'd be very interest be very interesting.

Rachel: We can all identify with that. Everybody

Austin: I, I, I think so

Rachel: Has tried to cover something up. Like, "Oh, I don't like that I did that. I really don't wanna face that. I don't want other people to see that."

Austin: So I think, I think that what's really interesting about these scriptures, and tons of other scriptures too about the value of being forthcoming and ending withholding. we've worked with so many couples. We're just teaching them the skill of recognizing when they're with withholding and then becoming forthcoming. Just 180 so many things in their marriage alone, you know? And so but we suffer emotionally from withholding. we suffer mentally from withholding, okay? We can get headaches from withholding. We get heartache from withholding. Withholding distances us from God, okay, when we withhold, okay? and it also kind of distances ourself with ourself, because when we withhold, we're basically telling ourselves that we're not confident enough, hopeful enough, faithful enough, and assured enough, self-assured and c and, self-secure enough to just tell the truth. And know that we can deal with what's coming around the corner once we tell the truth. And, and a lot of times I think it comes down to this perception of the cost and payoff where our subconscious tells ourself a story that it'll be less painful to lie than it will be to face the consequences.

When in truth, not only are you gonna face the pain of withholding, you're gonna eventually face the pain of telling the truth.

Rachel: Right. So you're giving yourself both pains.

Austin: Yeah. Right, and you're giving yourself the anxiety while you wait. And if you missed the episode on anxiety, the last episode before this was on anxiety, I definitely recommend watching it.

Rachel: Yeah, 'cause this builds on it a lot.

Austin: Yeah, this, this builds on it.

Rachel: For sure.

Austin: And, you know, it's kinda like, I, I've probably quoted this. Have I quoted Andy Mineo yet? One of my favorite Christian rappers, Andy Mineo, he has some great lyrics. He says, "You've got two choices. Both require pain. One's the pain of change, and the other is of staying the same." "One of them leads to joy. One of them leads to cha or one of them leads to pain. One of them leads to freedom. The other keeps me in chains." You know? And so it's like, it's gonna be hard either way. Ending withholding's gonna be hard either way. You might as well choose the hard that gets you a great end result. And that's with so many things. We could apply that to, you know, improvement on, in any area of life, but so this brings us to the actual cycle. So we wanna teach you guys this cycle here, and we might superimpose some graphics over the screen after I say this. We might not.

Who knows? But, 'cause, you know, sometimes

Rachel: Depends on how Austin's feeling.

Austin: Yeah, depends on how I'm feeling while I'm editing the episode. Once

Rachel: The process goes.

Austin: Yeah, it, yeah. And, and so the cycle basically looks like withholding, withdrawing, projecting. I like to use my hands with this, kind of this, kind of this withholding, withdrawing, projecting. Think of it as a three-part cycle. And what that means is if I withhold from Rachel, okay, let's just say that I make a conscious decision or unconscious decision to withhold something from her. What I'm gonna do is I'm then gonna withdraw from her, because the further we are away from each other emotionally or even physically the further I am from her, m my mind is gonna tell me the l the smaller chance she's gonna have to figure out that I'm not telling the truth. Because, here, come here, if I get this close to her and she asks me something And I try to answer it in a funky way. Like, ask me something. Like, ask me how I'm doing today.

Rachel: How are you doing today?

Austin: Good. Good. See? It's like she can tell I'm, like, I'm, like, squirrely because the closer

Rachel: Put those not on YouTube. You didn't look me in the eye.

Austin: Yeah, because the closer I am to her is gonna be, is gonna make it really difficult for me to not tell her the truth. And so when we withhold, we withdraw emotionally, physically, and then we project. And by project, I mean I'm gonna start making up stories about why she is not close to me. Why she's withdrawing from me, or I'm gonna make up stories about her that will help me justify why I withheld in the first place. She's not strong enough. She would get too upset. She'd get upset at me. She couldn't handle what I have to say. These are all stories that are gonna help me go, "Yeah. Yeah, it is a good idea I didn't tell her." Yeah, like may maybe you put on an outfit that I didn't think you looked great in or something. And it's like, "You know, she was so excited about this outfit, and I saw her and

Rachel: You wanna be honest? She looked pasty in it?

Austin: Yeah, like

Rachel: It's

Austin: Yeah, like she didn't look great in it. And but I was like, "Yeah. Yeah, you look great." And then I don't want her to know that I just withheld from her, or I just straight up lied to her, so I kind of back. 'Cause withholding is a form of lying. So if I kind of back, I'm kinda like, "Okay, yeah, you look great." And then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna be like, "Yeah, she's had a hard week. she'd be so upset if I told her that. I'm not gonna tell her that," you know? Or you know what? There have been times where she wasn't honest with me about when she didn't like something about me, so I, I'm just not gonna tell her. That's projection, okay? I'm going to see in her what I'm doing, okay? I'm going to make up a story about why she is distant from me when I'm being distant with her. That's the withholding cycle, okay? Is to withdraw after I withhold from her, and then I project, and I blame her for why we're not close.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So a good example of this would be, you know, a while ago there was a situation, kind of an ongoing, long, stringed out situation with a family member that, was not going well. It was, it was a painful situation, and any time that the situation come up, came up or was kind of at the forefront of my mind, it would become I would get emotional. Austin would help me. He did a lot for me to process and all this stuff. So there was a day where I got a text from someone, and I chose to not tell Austin about it. I thought, "You know what? He's having a hard, hard week or whatever. You know, we're having such a good time. I'm not gonna let this affect my life." "I'm just gonna, you know, breathe through this and just, you know, forget it and, like, not give that any of my attention. Like, my life is awesome." You know, kind of the, a little bit of an override where I thought I was doing the right thing.

Like, good mindset, yeah, and I'm not gonna tell Austin. I don't wanna I don't want it to be this thing again where it's I'm bringing problems up, you know? And so subconsciously, well, consciously I thought I forgot about it. I thought it wasn't a big deal, doesn't really matter. I kinda just let it go. but subconsciously it was kind of under the, under the radar all day long, calling the shots. I was more snippy, more withdrawn, more impatient, either with the kids or with Austin, whatever it was, more emotional. But here's the great thing about marriage: I cannot see it in myself. And you can see it and recognize it, and this is, you know, something I appreciate in you. This used to happen so often where you'd be like, "Babe, is there something? You're, you know, you're kinda not being yourself here," which is such an honoring way to address me. And you're like, "You're not being yourself here. is there something you haven't told me?

Is there something that happened today?" You know, you'd ask questions like that, and I'd be like, "Well, I mean, this, this." And I'm like, "Oh, well, this person did text me this morning." And I'd be like

Austin: And I'm like, "that would normally-"

Rachel: That

Austin: " bring you a lot of discomfort."

Rachel: That would be it.

Austin: Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and say you've probably been spinning on that today. And it w probably would have served you a lot to bring that to our marriage so that we could support each other.

Rachel: And here I thought I had some noble intention or I had handled it. And so what I was doing is I didn't wanna bring to you what I thought you couldn't handle, when really I was the one having trouble handling it.

Austin: That's perfectly said. That's perfectly said. What are you laughing at me for? That's just perfectly said.

Rachel: Nothing.

Austin: And, yeah, like you didn't wanna bring it to me because secretly you, you really weren't in a place where you wanted to handle it. But then you pretended that you were protecting me, thinking that

Rachel: Like you couldn't handle it

Austin: I was in a place to handle it. But really it was you. And that

Rachel: It was

Austin: That's perfect. That was, you withheld, you withdrew and you projected, you know? And so, so that's what we would call the unconscious cycle. Okay? This unconscious cycle is the withholding cycle. When we're in an unconscious state, when we're not present, when we're not mindful of the Spirit, when we're not leaning into our marriage, we're unconscious, and so we withhold. So Rachel, what's a good conscious example using what we call the forthcoming cycle?

Rachel: Mm-hmm. So instead of withholding, you're forthcoming. you know, as we were prepping for this episode, this story just, this experience kept coming to my mind, and I was like, "That's not withholding. That's an example where I could have withheld." and so I'm sharing it today because it just in my spirit kept coming up. And it was this really awesome day. You had gotten the car all cleaned, your Corvette, gotten it all cleaned, going on a date, going out on a double date. So I was all dolled up.

Austin: Oh, I know what you're talking about. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. we were in a nice car. We were going on a date with a, a couple, that we really love and enjoy. And you were winding on some really fast roads, curvy roads. And you are a very safe driver, and I trust you. but- I don't remember how much time had passed since my brother had died in a motorcycle accident. you know, he was going really fast, and that's how his life ended. And so all of a sudden, just my entire body, I had this visceral, just f sense of fear in imagining our kids not having parents. Imagining them going through what I went through, and I am a little emotional even saying this. So I'm just gonna breathe a little bit. 'Cause yeah, it just, the emotions came over me. But, I then felt a lot of sadness. You know, just thinking of my brother, 'cause I love him. And, like, he was having fun. He was doing something that was fun. so anyway,

Austin: Yeah, I remember that

Rachel: I

Austin: I, I remember you said, while we were kinda zipping around you're like, "Man, I'm, I'm noticing myself, like, feeling really sad right now." Like, and you were like, "Can you, like, slow down

Rachel: Slow down

Austin: And just, you know, like, drive like normal?" And, I'm like, "Well, yeah, sure, of course." And- I think even before we went in to have dinner,

Rachel: I let myself cry.

Austin: Yeah, you let yourself cry, and we, and we talked through it.

Rachel: Yeah, 'cause I was like, here was the fork in the road, no pun intended.

Austin: Nah.

Rachel: If I, if I if I ever went and I'm like, "Oh, I don't wanna mess up my makeup. Oh, we're about to see these people." "I don't want them to see me cry, or, like, see that I've been crying." But for me, I actually have no shame in that anymore.

Austin: Yeah, you don't.

Rachel: Because I'm like, "Hey, I just had a good cry in the car."

Austin: That's for sure. Yeah.

Rachel: Like, you know, that's a way that I can be an example to the world, being comfortable, and loving myself. But I could have gone that route, and like, "Oh, I don't wanna mess up," quote, unquote, "mess up this day." "We're having such a good time." but really, the obstacle was the way. Feeling my feeling was the way, because then I flushed it out. Again, the whole nod back to our anxiety episode. I felt the feeling. I spoke the truth. We were connected. I didn't withhold. And then I wiped my eyes and went in and had a blast. Like, just a great night. Maybe even better than I would have before, because I processed all of that, and you were connected. You knew where I was at. And I appreciate that you supported me in that really well.

Austin: Yeah. And I, and I, I too respect you for that, because you, you caught what could've been the withholding cycle, and you made it the more forthcoming cycle. So i if we, the three stages of the forthcoming cycle would be to be forthcoming, to lean in, and to own. Okay? Which is the opposite of withhold withdrawal, project. 'Cause that's where I'm not telling the truth, I'm backing away from you, and then I'm making you own it. But the forthcoming cycle is I'm telling the truth, I'm leaning into the truth, and then I'm owning my attachment to it. So if you had to kind of define those three parts of the cycle for that story what would those be?

Rachel: I, I shared.

Austin: Yep, you shared.

Rachel: And, you know, I leaned in by, by expounding more feeling my feelings. And then I owned it by, I mean, you know, taking responsibility as much as I, you know, in that situation, took responsibility. So a lot of times, the withholding happens with, like, a spouse will say something and the other person has an offense, you know, which nod to our last, our previous episode. That's w would be a good example of owning it. Like, okay, I noticed that I was offended. I, well, no, that would be the unconscious way to say it. I noticed I had a feeling when you said this about my hair. Then, you know, leaning in, and if you need to feel it, process that a little bit more, have an ongoing conversation, and then say, "Yeah," own it by, you know, "Okay, yep, I haven't loved myself very well lately." "I've been negative about myself, and you saying that brought up that, and just kind of sent that house of cards crumbling."

Austin: That's really good. I appreciate you sharing that. And I, I was thankful that, you know, you honored me. Because you did honor me. You honored me by being willing to tell the truth, and, and it empowered me, because you were willing to say, like, "I know you're strong enough to handle what I'm gonna share with you." "And I know you're strong enough to be able to walk me through it and love me through it." So, that's why that's so powerful. So thank you. I've got a couple examples as well. So my withholding cycle, and to, in full disclosure, I'm not quoting an exact situation, but I can remember when this has happened multiple times. and so, and a good, a good example for me on my withholding cycle is the withhold is, like, I had a hard day at work. Maybe I lost And I think really specifically it's, like, losing a client or some major account or something to where I feel like I personally wasn't good enough, and then that, results in us losing income or something like that.

Or a, you know, a little piece of our income. And so I can think of many times where I've, like, withheld, where, like, I had a tough day, and it wasn't just normally a tough day. We, you know, lost some good account or one of our partners lost something or whatever, and then I kinda felt like it was a reflection of my personal abilities and my ability to, you know, like, provide for my family. So then I would withdraw. I'd kinda get distant, because I actually feel shame, because, like, I c- I, like, I would make up this story in my weak moment that I couldn't provide for you or that God for some reason wasn't favoring me or, or wasn't gonna ultimately be the one who takes care of my family. And because I didn't want you to even ask. So, like, I'd get home. I'd, I wouldn't tell you. I would withdraw from you, 'cause I wouldn't even want you to be like, "How was your day?"

'Cause then I'd be, I'd be positioned to have to tell you or to have to lie and withhold. You know? And so, and then the projection was I would nitpick you about things like finances or the little missteps. You know? Like, I'd be like, "Oh, Rach, have you not responded to those emails today?" You know, like, projecting on you. Like, "you're slipping up in your business right now." When it was me who slipped up, you know? Or I'd nitpick you about finances. You know? I'd be like, "wow, you spent $11 on gluten-free macaroni and cheese today, Rachel? Like, wow." And I'm kinda making that up. I, I don't think I've ever nitpicked you like that. But, but you know, there's been times where I've called something out. Like, "Man, do we really have to spend $900 a week at Aldi's, you know?" 'Cause for some reason, our four kids eat a lot, and it's on but, so the withhold was I didn't wanna tell you.

The withdrawal was I didn't wanna be close to you 'cause I didn't even want you to ask me. I didn't even want an opportunity to have to tell you that I feel like I failed at something. And then I nitpick you about finances, nitpick you about your, how, like, you weren't doing good in business- 'cause you weren't responding to emails. And so, yeah, I think that's a common one for me to go to. And a lot of men that we've worked with over the years, I feel like that's, that's kinda something they struggle with, too. But now, that was my, that's my unconscious pattern. My conscious pattern Do you wanna say something?

Rachel: Well, yeah, I wanna say something really quickly. That kind of points to something we teach about a lot, is you're never upset for the th reason you think you're upset. And that is really good to s to mention with the withholding cycle. Because we'll withhold, and then it's so subconscious. We, like, nitpick all these other things and we air quotes, "think" we're upset about those things. Money is one of those things. It's like a power struggle, and there's a lot, usually a lot of stuff going on. It's not about the money. It's about something else. Like what you said, feeling like you haven't able to provide.

Austin: Yeah, it, it, it was not about you spending so much money at, you know, the grocery store. It was that I was feeling like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "I lost this client. What if I lost 70 clients that week?" You know? Like, like that would ever happen. Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, and, and so, so

Rachel: The catastrophizing

Austin: Yeah, the catastrophizing, yeah. so my forthcoming example, where I was conscious and I entered the forthcoming would be, so I remember one time, and I've felt like this a couple times, and this is, like, a whole 'nother episode, where a lot of people disagree with this and that's okay.

Rachel: That's a big one

Austin: Because we've helped a lot of people, couples, key leaders, really change their marriage by this one aspect. But I remember one time, that I wanted to withhold from you that I, like, saw a woman earlier that day that was, like, objectively really attractive. You know? And, you know, I, like, told myself this initial story of, like, "Oh, no, don't tell Rachel that you saw some really beautiful woman, 'cause she might feel insecure about herself or something." And, but I really felt like God was just like, "Hey, I want you to go home and tell your wife that, you know, you were at a coffee shop and you just saw this woman that you took note of, and you said, 'She is very beautiful.'" You know? "And just, I want you to go tell Rachel that." You know, and I really felt God told me that. And so I came home. I t- I told you that, okay? And, I leaned in by, instead of distancing our emotional connection because I was too afraid you would figure it out, I was able to lean in and tell you the truth, and also give you this story that, like, I do have only eyes for you, and I'm also going to notice objectively beautiful women.

You know? And that, again, there's, there's not a man on the planet that can say that he's never, as, as a married man, has never seen another woman he felt objectively attractive to. And if he does, he's stretching a really bad rubber band that's gonna hurt when it snaps. And that's a whole 'nother training, because I've got a program where I help men get unaddicted from porn, and help them t to, get unaddicted from lust and stuff like that. And so that's, kind of an impromptu, you know, shout-out for that program. But, so there's a whole process we follow in that. And one of those is just is radical honesty and being forthcoming about when we're attracted to someone else, when we see someone else who is objectively good-looking.

Rachel: 'Cause God made humans

Austin: God made, God made beautiful people

Rachel: Beautifully.

Austin: And we always say the antidote to lust is honor. So we have a whole process we teach on when you see someone who's, attractive, how instead of, you know, your flesh wanting you to lust, your conscious self, the self that connects with God, is going to honor that person. Anyways, it's a whole, whole thing. But, yeah, so and then what I owned was, I didn't need to accuse you of being out of integrity or hiding things from me because I was forthcoming about not hiding something from you. One of the quickest ways you can know if your spouse is not being truthful to you, or if you're not being truthful to them, is accusing them of not being truthful with you. And so I know, I know, yeah.

Rachel: We've gotten each other on this.

Austin: Oh, I know, we have to, totally. Well, there's been times where, you know, I've been like, "Rachel, are you not telling me the truth about that?" And then she's like, "What are you not telling the truth about?" I'm like, "Shoot. Okay." "let me think. Ah, there's something." And so yeah, I, I wanna be forthcoming, so I was forthcoming about that with you. And I leaned in by just being able to own that, and I did not want to emotionally distance ourselves. because I want you to be close to me, even if that means I have to admit things to you that I'm afraid you'll be upset with with me about. You know? And then the owning piece was, if I was being unconscious and I f- I would've withheld all that with you, I know I would've nitpicked you, and I would've accused you of not telling me the truth. Because if you can be the one with the problem, why would my problem ever nee even need to come up?

If we can be if we can be so focused on your problems, then we wouldn't need to be focused on mine. But we don't have that kind of marriage, because we both know that our, judgment hides projection. You know?

Rachel: So ask yourself, "Do I criticize my spouse a lot?" "Do I have grace and love for myself?" "And what am I not facing?"

Austin: You know, and so again, we want to be conscious people. And I mean, that's why we have the brand The Conscious Christian and The Conscious Christian Marriage, because we wanna help people shift from things like that withholding cycle to this forthcoming cycle. And when people are new at jumping into, like, marriage investment and coaching and counseling, you know, there, there is, there is some curve where those first few times are gonna be kind of difficult. And that's why we invite couples, like, join our program, like, join our network of amazing couples, and, like, so that you can have the support and encouragement, love, and prayer of tons of couples just like you, who are humble enough to dive into this stuff. Because once you do, all of a sudden, the clarity, the ease and flow, and peace and joy that comes from flushing all the pipes out and clearing all the slates it's incredible. You know? And so we have built a culture in our marriage, and in countless marriages, of being able to be forthcoming and not withholding.

'Cause I do believe that if you withhold something that would affect your connection, it's a form of lying. And, and if you are doing that, you are sinning. You are missing the mark that God has for you. You're missing the mark because God wants your marriage to be awesome. And lying will ruin it. Okay? And so God wants your life to be great. And, and this, this, these cycles, spoiler alert, are not just marriage. All relationships. All friendships, family relationships, friends, clients, bosses neighbors, pastors, you name it. And the more that we can be forthcoming and lean in and own our stuff it's the most powerful way to empower someone too. Because when I was able to tell you, like, "Hey, I, I just want you to know, I just, I saw this woman today at the coffee shop, and I just took notice. Wow, God, God's got a masterpiece. There's one. There's one right over there," you know? Is then you knew that I believed in you to where you wouldn't then be like, "Oh, wow, am I not beautiful enough for your eyes to ever look at another woman."

Like, you were like, "Hey, thanks for sharing that with me, honey." Then I felt safe with you. I didn't feel shame because we have got to be ridiculously transparent about that so that a hidden problem does not begin. Because I'm telling you, we've worked with tons of couples that have unfortunately had infidelity and things like that, and the slippery slope is lying about how you feel. You know?

Rachel: Attraction.

Austin: Yeah, the, yeah.

Rachel: The, mm.

Austin: Yeah, that's the slippery slope.

Rachel: That's why, I mean, that is a great example why this is the silent killer.

Austin: Yes. Yes, it is a silent killer because it's never We always tell people, you know, when we're, when we're working with a couple that's had infidelity or something like that, we always say, "Well, it's not like you woke up one day and just thought, 'You know what? I'm gonna ruin my marriage today.'" "That just sounds like a great idea." "Like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go find someone and have an affair with them, and it's gonna be awesome." It's because a really, it's a slow fade. Casting Crowns. It's a slow fade, you know? It's, it's, it's a thousand little negative decisions. It's falling down a slippery slope. It's like when Samson walked back, you know, 10,000 steps or whatever that was. It's like one step after another, you know, it eventually led him to Delilah, you know? And so that's what happens. It's not one day, boom, you just ruin it all in one day. It's a slippery slope. You know? And so to keep ourselves from entering that slippery slope, we have to be diligent about telling the microscopic truth as often as we can.

And because of that, it's created incredible connection with you and I. Where I can feel safe enough to be like, "Hey, like, like, I'm, I, I noticed this attractive woman today. I wanted to tell you that so that nothing festers in me." And because of your security as a woman of God, you're not offended by that. You're not upset by that. You're like, "Hey, babe- I really appreciate you telling me that," because you know I'm strong and secure enough to hear that.

Rachel: Yeah. And well, two things on that. One, nod back to our episode on agreements. We have an agreement.

Austin: Yes, we have an agreement around that.

Rachel: So we've discussed that ahead of time. That'll be a really wise thing for you to do with your spouse to discuss that ahead of time. "Hey, I'm not gonna withhold. If this happens, I'm gonna share it." You know, whatever it is. and then also, you know, you could have told yourself a story, nod to our episode about stories, that I'm, I would be insecure. And I would have a reaction, like an emotional reaction, or I would feel terrible about myself. But then nod to our episode on, did we already talk about responsibility?

Austin: No, but wow. I'm just loving all your nods, your network of

Rachel: We've got nods. Nod to a future episode on respons radical responsibility. We haven't done that yet?

Austin: I don't think we've We've talked about that.

Rachel: We've talked about it.

Austin: I don't know if we've nodded to it.

Rachel: But we talk about responsibility a lot here.

Austin: And I'm not talking about these nods. Shout-out for any of my, my boys out there.

Rachel: Yeah. taking responsibility, so you share with me how you're feeling. You're being in integrity. And now I get to choose. If I did have a feeling of insecurity come up which has happened

Austin: You get to own that

Rachel: I can own that, and then I could say, "You know, when you share that with me, not gonna lie."

Austin: "I felt a few feelings."

Rachel: "Yeah, I've, I've been wanting to work on my butt, but I've been just a little flat lately, and I know her butt was, like, really fit and-" you know, but I, I can be inspired by that. Like, wow. She I can honor her. I can say, "She takes really good care of her body. I'm gonna be inspired by that." "I wanna take good care of my body, and I know you think I'm sexy. I appreciate myself. You know, there's so many things I can do."

Austin: Yeah. Oh, man, yeah, and th this is a whole episode, so we yeah, we should, we should whole episode this one.

Rachel: Note that when we get off recording. but yeah.

Austin: And I wanna appreciate you for being someone who's worked through that to where you are a secure woman because if I didn't feel safe in being able to bring that to you like, that's how you support me and not having an, like, not having an issue with porn, not having an issue with lust is because I've been able to bring those things to you for so many years now. so, like, I don't have to hide where I struggle with you out of fear that you're gonna feel a certain way about yourself. So I really thank you for that.

Rachel: Yeah. Thank you.

Austin: Because, I know, because we work with a lot of people, that they don't have that yet, and the journey of working through that, it's just painful. It's, i it is painful. So I just thank you. Thank you for being strong, a strong place for me to tell the truth to and all that. So, all right. So we're gonna pause real quick and go to our nonprofit shout-out. Now, today's nonprofit shout-out is very special to us. They're all special to us. but we're, we're shouting out a specific person within a big organization, okay? So we have a good friend of ours. He and his wife are not only in our program, but they are ambassadors, at Conscious Christian Marriage, where you can actually talk to them about CCM. and if you join, wh through talking with them, they get credit for that. and, and they'll c help you get acclimated into the program. But his name is, Stephen Losee. he's married to a wonderful woman named Alexis Losee. and so, Stephen Losee is with Team World Vision.

And so World Vision is responsible for all sorts of change on a global level. I mean, what a powerhouse organization. and specifically, they s allow people like us to sponsor kids in other countries. And so, Stephen Losee is our guy at Team World Vision, and we sponsor a little girl. Her name's Anapashi. and we've sponsored her for, like, five years now, six years. I mean, we have photos of her from when she was, like, little all the way up to she's, like, six, seven, eight now. and we get to have opportunities to send stuff to her, like, on her birthday and Christmas, and- Team World Vision has an amazing model, to where the way they empower and equip villages, so they become self-sustaining, so that they are able to generate resources that they need. But, Stephen Losch, he's a marathon runner. He runs all over the world. I think he's run every single world marathon now, like Germany and Tokyo and A he's, like, d done the Boston.

And he's done, the

Rachel: I know him.

Austin: Yeah, I know, right? He's famous. He's literally amazing. and so is his wife, Alexis. and, and so, anyways, we really love that organization, and so we're gonna put a link in our bio, that you can click and learn more about what World Vision is up to and what Stephen is doing within World Vision. And hey, I think we pay, like, 39 or 40 bucks a month to sponsor this girl. And I'm sure you've heard the World Vision spon- If you've ever been to any church or Christian concert- I'm sure you've heard the pitch. But Stephen's got a great one. and not only does he just, you know, be a p want to be a part of World Vision, he literally runs thousands of miles a month.

Rachel: To raise sponsors.

Austin: To raise money for these kids. And you know, Stephen trusts me with his mental health, and one thing we haven't talked about yet is why he runs thousands of miles. I think we have talked about that, and it's all good, I think. I don't like to run. But Stephen does. And like, I'll, I'll call him, and he's like, "Hey, man." And I'm like, "What's up, dude?" He's like, "Oh, I'm on a run." I'm like, "What mile are you on?" "Oh, like 40." And I'm like

Rachel: How are you talking right now?

Austin: I was like, "It's 9:00 AM." He's like, "Oh yeah, I know. I'm, I'm kinda behind." It's amazing. He's like, he's like Chris Traeger from Parks and Rec. But anyway, so,

Rachel: Love

Austin: World Vision, Stephen Losch. We're gonna put a link, and, and, we want you to click that. Go and donate a few bucks. Even if you can only give five bucks, give five bucks.

Rachel: Yeah, or sponsor a child.

Austin: Yeah, or sponsor a child. Yes. And you know what? I'll make you all a deal. Here's a crazy deal. This is off the, off the fly, off the cuff.

Rachel: Ooh, I don't even know what these guys are gonna say.

Austin: If you go sponsor, if you go sponsor a kid through Team World Vision, because of this episode, and you send us a screenshot of that receipt, we will give you, twice that amount of money, and a credit to our online store at CCM, okay? So, you go sponsor a kid at 39 bucks a month, we're gonna give you a $78 credit, to our, our store's website. You can use that towards coaching, towards a counseling session with us, towards our connection cards, one of our courses, et cetera, because we really do believe, in World Vision, and we really believe in Stephen Losch. And so

Rachel: Yeah, and just think. You're already spending that $39, very likely if you live in America or

Austin: Yeah. You probably bought a thir

Rachel: Have income

Austin: You probably bought a $39 latte this morning.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, if you live in California.

Austin: Yeah, if you live in California, yeah.

Rachel: Or, or New York.

Austin: And there's probably gold flecks in it and stuff like that.

Rachel: Or London. Oh my gosh. but yes, you spend that money somewhere else that is a non-necessity like going out to eat or something like that. So

Austin: And there's no guilt in that

Rachel: This is not, yeah.

Austin: There's no We're, we're, we're, we're, we're in the same boat.

Rachel: I was gonna say that.

Austin: I mean, you know.

Rachel: This is not a guilt thing.

Austin: Yeah, not a guilt thing at all. Just

Rachel: But if you feel called, there is a way to, you know, re-allot some things and it's, it's worth it because

Austin: Your, your priorities are found in your calendar and in your bank statements, 100%. Whatever you want the most, you will find a way, to take care of it, you know? Just like investing in your marriage. Okay, so Rachel, big action item, all right? So let's get to the big, juicy action item today. Okay, if, if, if we could give everyone a one big, juicy, delicious action item they could leave with today what would that be?

Rachel: Is it edible?

Austin: It could be.

Rachel: Big and juicy. Okay, I'm stop, I'm s

Austin: Yeah, you, you just need to quit while you're ahead. I like where you're going. We'll finish that conversation later.

Rachel: All right, so close your eyes, unless you're driving while you're listening to this.

Austin: Oh, I close my eyes too.

Rachel: Yeah, I know, I do too, when I say this.

Austin: All right.

Rachel: All right, so close your eyes. Take a deep breath in through your nose. Fill your belly, not your chest, with air. Fill your belly. Stick your belly button out as you inhale, and then press all that air out, pushing your belly button back to the back of your spine. Ask yourself one question. What am I withholding from my spouse that would affect our connection that I want to share with them so that I can end my withholding? So ask yourself this question, but I guarantee most of you probably

Austin: You probably already know

Rachel: Had something come up

Austin: Something in today's episode

Rachel: While we were Something convicted you probably. The Lord works in wonderful ways.

Austin: And, and your reward for that thing being shared in your marriage, I guarantee you, e in the, the, there might be a little Band-Aid rippage, okay, that might hurt a little bit

Rachel: Yeah, might be

Austin: But it will bless your marriage. And I believe God will honor you for stepping back into integrity. Because ultimately, withholding is an integrity breach. 'Cause as Christians we commit, agree to the value, the law, the mandate from God to tell the truth. So when we're not telling the truth, we are out of integrity, with our, with our values and with who we say we are. God always honors people when they step back in, into integrity.

Rachel: Yeah. So, it, let's just assume you thought of that item. What you're gonna do right now is stop. What you're doing, you're gonna set a time to chat and share this with your spouse. So text your spouse now. Say, "Hey, I wanna have a conversation. I have some things I wanna share. When is a good time for you?" Instead of just kinda dumping it on them

Austin: Yeah. Just be like, "Hey"

Rachel: Whenever they're not prepared

Austin: Be like, "Hey, I wanna have a chat with you." "Does tonight, would tonight work after we put the kids down?" "Or maybe tomorrow morning before we get up for the day?" And just say, and we always There's so many things we could share about this process, but just be like, "Hey, because I love you because I honor you, because I wanna be a high integrity husband or wife, and because I wanna follow God, and because I want our- I believe in the long-term us- I just wanna tell the truth about something. There's just something that I've, I've been withholding from you, and I wanna stop that right now and be connected to you again." Do that thing, and it will, it will absolutely change your marriage, so. Go ahead.

Rachel: And also, like, comment

Austin: Yes. Like, comment, subscribe

Rachel: Subscribe if you haven't. rate us. All your reviews are a wonderful blessing. Your comments are a wonderful blessing. And do not tell yourself the story that we are too busy for you to reach out to us.

Austin: Yeah, we talk to, we talk to people

Rachel: Because this is what we love. We love you. We wanna hear from you. so you're important. Yes, you, the person listening to this and internalizing what I'm saying. You are important to us. So if you ever wanna say something, you feel something come up that you wanna tell us or share or reach out, please do. That's what we're here for. We love it, and we love you.

Austin: Yeah. Thanks for tune- Well said, babe. thanks for tuning into this episode of the Conscious Christian Marriage podcast. Again, as Rachel said, like, comment, subscribe, do all the things. We love you. We're praying for you, and we'll see you on the next episode.